Author Topic: Whats about "no Icons"?? (Read 1288 times)

Knegel · « **on:** August 28, 2006, 12:35:03 AM »

Hi,

would be cool too have the possibility to turn the icons (+ padlock) off for all players.

AH is one of the rare games where this is possible without to make the gameplay unrealistic difficult, cause the graphics provide a pretty good playable middle/long distance graphic, the great cockpit system provide playable views and there are enough skilled players around to be able to play without padlock and icons(edit: regarding skilled, i talk about beeing able to keep a target in sight, from inside the cockpit without padlock).

This is the only feature i miss in AH.

Greetings,

Saxman · « **Reply #1 on:** August 28, 2006, 12:59:00 AM »

What, so no red or green cons whatsoever?

If this was an Axis vs Allies sim where you never saw Spitfires and Zeros on the same side, yeah, that would work since you'd know to only shoot the guy with meetballs or the star and bars. But with the way the MA is currently set up, you'd have no way to tell if you're saddled up on a friendly or not.

bagrat · « **Reply #2 on:** August 28, 2006, 01:06:51 AM »

i feel we jus need an indicator saying its enemy, a red dot or somethin to that effect.

also do away wit zoom. for fighters only. shooting people down is entirely too easy. if im shootin 20mm it takes 10 rounds, if im usin 30mm 5 rounds.

too those who say, but it will be too hard, zoom compensates for not being able to see actual size of aircraft. good shooting someone down should be extremely difficult.

SAS_KID · « **Reply #3 on:** August 28, 2006, 01:24:37 AM »

I tried this but since graphics detail's are not so good to be able to recognize planes from a distance (all you see is a black dot) it doesn't work to well.

Schatzi · « **Reply #4 on:** August 28, 2006, 03:45:54 AM »

If were talking MA here, i think that "feature" wouldnt work out. I mean i remember when i first started out, i had a hard tiem remebering what plane the shortcuts stand for, let alone know what it could DO. To ID it visibly (with all those different skins out there) - well, to be honest id *still* have difficulties. Thinking of a 5 vs 1 with no icon to tell you who is who and how far/fas he is......no, that would take the fun out of it for me.

But i have flown "no icon" snaphots in the past where everyone simply turned off icons on his own FE. Those were a hoot.

Krusty · « **Reply #5 on:** August 28, 2006, 09:18:56 AM »

I've done matched setups without icons before. It's stupid because you have to close in to 200 yards before you can tell what plane you're looking at! I did 109G vs P51B with Frank3 a long time back and I was latched on to a P51 and got in real close, couldn't be sure, had to close in to 300 yards before I realized it was a friendly. Then On another con I latched onto I had to close to 200 before I actually saw the hint of invasion stripes on the skin.

In fact you'd be able to tell the difference in real life from miles away. The colors and the details are MUCH more obvious. Watch a cessna as it flies overhead. Realize it is a few thousand feet away. Then realize you can make out the gear, the windows, the door, the flaps, the ailerons. In AH all that becomes a dot.

It's not AH, it's the computer technology available. No game will EVER work without icons of some sort just because of the superiority of human eyes to square dots on a monitor.

nirvana · « **Reply #6 on:** August 28, 2006, 05:04:23 PM »

Alt I, fly around without icons to your hearts content.

Knegel · « **Reply #7 on:** September 13, 2006, 02:29:18 PM »

Hi,

particular very interesting replys, but most dont got the point or show no experience with "no icon gaming".

The last reply actually is only BS, as the autor probrably know.

1. I wish no icons as option, not as a must in all games, but of course, if icons are dissabled all players need to have it dissabled!!

2. No icons can be very interesting in real setups, like BoB(axis vs allied), in setups with mixed planeset this of course dont make sence.

3. The planes in AH are by far better identifyable than in IL2/FB, specialy with zoom. In IL-2/FB most Squads prefer no icons or only short range friendly icons(this actually only cause the horrible inside cockpit sight. Without the icons its very difficult to stay in formation, cause the planes often dissapear behind the fat cockpit frames).

4. In RL it wasnt always that easy to distinggush between friend and foe, same can happen without icons in AH, but the experiences in IL-2 and EAW show that only "no icon rookis" suffer this problem up to a unplayable level(actually same experiences many real aces had in the beginning and even sometimes later).

5. Zoom is similar like full concentration to a smal point, the field of vision get smaler but the sight better. I cont count it as cheat, we have enough disadvantages cause missing 3d. That its maybe to easy to shoot down a plane is pretty OT here.

Greetings,

Knegel

Karnak · « **Reply #8 on:** September 13, 2006, 04:11:27 PM »

Knegel,

As I said in the last thread about this one week ago (yours?), the zoom is not a zoom. It simply moves things to a 1:1 scale instead of a compressed view that we normally have.

How you can think that a 1:1 scale is a "cheat" is beyond me.

The problem is that with no icons you are simulating a pilot who's vision is so bad that he could not obtain a drivers license. Do you think they let pilots with vision that bad fly?

With no icons you have to get to ~250 yards to tell the difference between a P-51 and a Bf109.

Do you think that in reality you had to get that close to ID those two fighters?

Lye-El · « **Reply #9 on:** September 13, 2006, 05:00:42 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Knegel

1. I wish no icons as option, not as a must in all games, but of course, if icons are dissabled all players need to have it dissabled!!

Screw that. You may want to set up a head to head arena and give it a try. I doubt you would have many people fly in it for more than a round or two.

wasq · « **Reply #10 on:** September 13, 2006, 05:09:54 PM »

I think this would be a good addition for some events. We've done a few Snapshots with no icons as Schatzi mentioned, but the problem there is that even one player who either knowingly cheats or just doesn't know how to do it can ruin the event for a whole lot of people. As has happened once.

This could be an arena setting like the "short icons" setting we already have. Just modify it so that icon is displayed at d < 50 or not at all.

nirvana · « **Reply #11 on:** September 13, 2006, 07:46:12 PM »

My reply was not BS and I resent that. I gave you an option to fly with no icons, you don't like it tough.

Kweassa · « **Reply #12 on:** September 13, 2006, 08:22:20 PM »

I agree on the general premise that the icons are needed. However, I have doubts on whether if that much info they give out is really necessary.

The distance/range counter would probably be the first thing that needs to go away. The differences in gunnery between range-indicated and non-ranged icons in IL2/FB for example, is dramatic to say the least.

With ranged-icons the gunnery distances resemble what would also be seen in AH2 - upto about 400 meters maximum. However, the same game with same visuals and yet without ranged icons people immediately act differently - the gunnery distances are drawn a lot closer, almost upto zero-distance, and the effectiveness of long range shooting goes way down.

The difficulty of judging distances over range compells the pilots to close in to a very close proximity of the target where no range identification is required in the first place. Couple that with the fact that IL2/FB offers no ammunition counters, and what you get is a more or less accurate depiction of reality.

There's no reason AH shouldn't do the same. Fair enough if someone argues that the AH graphics isn't sufficient enough to depict range differences with just the graphics - but we already have the +/- closure detector. What more do we need, other than country/type identification?

So get rid of the distance counter, instead of icons altogether.

Knegel · « **Reply #13 on:** September 14, 2006, 12:09:49 AM »

Hi,

Quote

Originally posted by Karnak
Knegel,

As I said in the last thread about this one week ago (yours?), the zoom is not a zoom. It simply moves things to a 1:1 scale instead of a compressed view that we normally have.

How you can think that a 1:1 scale is a "cheat" is beyond me.

The problem is that with no icons you are simulating a pilot who's vision is so bad that he could not obtain a drivers license. Do you think they let pilots with vision that bad fly?

With no icons you have to get to ~250 yards to tell the difference between a P-51 and a Bf109.

Do you think that in reality you had to get that close to ID those two fighters?

could you point me to the sentence where i wrote that zoom is a cheat??
I made one tipo and wrote "cont" insteat of "dont", otherwise the sentence show iam all for zoom!!

There was a reason why in real life experienced pilots did form up inside a enemy formation (Bader in his Spit, next to 109´s) and dont took notice. Wick also got shot down cause noone took notice that a Spit is among the lines when they was flying home.

Real pilots often mixed up P51´s with 109´s, until the US planes got a full metal finish. In late 44/45 Hermann Graf painted his 109 most similar to the typical P51´s, he also did climb like a P51 (more flat) to give the impression of a P51.

In real life the distance to distingush between a planetype also vary from 100yard to some kyard, depenting to the painting, the planesize, light/fog factor, the wingshape and specialy the angle of vision. To distingush a P51B or P40 from a 109 direct from 6 oclock is in real life also very difficult, even from 50m, specialy if all have the same colour, while its not that difficult with an other angle.

With icons you miss one very big problem real pilots had!! They didnt create friend/foe instruments just for fun!!

In Ah its very good possible to distingush between big and smal planes long before the icon range and its very good possible to distinggush between different planes around 1000-1500 yard.

With the LLv34 we made quiet a lot no icon games while training(thats was with AH1), the result show its good possible.
The results with IL-2 and its bad inside cockpit sight and unbalaced plane visibility show that its still possible and many people want that.

And again: This is only a option!

In a H2H game not many people play with realistic ammoload, but there are servers and they get used, i guess same pilots also would try no icon gaming!

My experience is, basing on 3 different simulations: Who once got used to no icon gaming, its disadvantages, advantages, find the icons simply ugly and as a immersionkiller.

Greetings,

Knegel

Karnak · « **Reply #14 on:** September 14, 2006, 11:14:08 AM »

Oops, misread were you said "I cont count it as cheat" (sic).