Author Topic: Explain this: (Read 1448 times)

-lynx- · « **on:** November 10, 2000, 05:17:00 AM »

I'm sorry Fury and other Republican-minded public

but this just does not wash:

- You claim victory in Florida/the whole thing based on the count as it stands and the majority of less than 1,000 votes (fact);

- You say that all Democrats' claims is balooney and a plot (maybe not in the same words but I'm sure you get my drift - fact);

At the same time:

- Votes from abroad have not been counted (according to some reports weren't even expected for at least a week!!!);

- 14 out of 67 counties in the state of Florida have not even submitted their count yet as of this morning! (source - BBC Radio news);

- Pat Bucannan leads in predominantly Jewish community???

Please no flames - I'm not an American and personally like the pilot guy better. But surely one has to be honest with oneself and admit to the fact that claiming victory based on such a slim majority with so many votes not even counted yet is not really fair?

p.s. All this with the twist that the majority of American people (numbers)actually did vote for "the other guy"?

p.p.s. re-vote in Florida with just 2 names on a ballot paper would take a couple of days to organise and would resolve the issue once and for all without splitting the country in two and getting the lawyers even richer...

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lynx
13 Sqn RAF

Eagler · « **Reply #1 on:** November 10, 2000, 05:29:00 AM »

Word from the AP on the recount shows 324 votes for Bush over gore's total. Now we wait on the democrats 3rd recount plus the absentee ballots.

You can't have a re-vote of this election as the outcome of the other states are known. It would be skewd and inaccurate.

Eagler

Dnil · « **Reply #2 on:** November 10, 2000, 10:46:00 AM »

re-vote would cause a war. No way the revote could be deemed true. Now that they know how important the state is or how close it is, it could switch original votes, from both parties. Sure it sounds simple but its not possible. If you dont take the time to read and understand your personal responsibilities on the ballot, too bad. This is not vote until you get it right. Ballots were thrown out because people punched twice for president, how brain dead do you have to be to punch twice? I just dont get it. This is gettin disqusting.

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Dnil---Skyhawk until I get Dnil back

Maj. 900th Bloody Jaguars
Part time aircraft restorer. www.kingwoodcable.com/jheuer

Ripsnort · « **Reply #3 on:** November 10, 2000, 11:02:00 AM »

All 67 counties have been accounted for as of this morning, Bush ahead by 300+, still 3000 votes to go from overseas, deadline is Nov.17th.

West Palm beach has jewish communities but by all means, is NOT predominently Jewish, that's what the press is telling you but do you believe everything the press tells you?

My mother lives in West Palm Beach, I visit there often. It has Jewish communities, but in no way is predominently Jewish...besides, alot of the Jewish community hates Leberman, since he's an unorthadox jew, and he married a Catholic.

Dowding · « **Reply #4 on:** November 10, 2000, 04:34:00 PM »

Anyone want me to tell me the error on the vote count?

If the vote is accurate to say 1000 votes, then the percentage error on the 6 million votes is +/- 0.0167%. This sounds a little too accurate to me.

LuckyDay · « **Reply #5 on:** November 10, 2000, 06:59:00 PM »

I keep hearing about how confusing the ballot was for those poor 19,000 people (out of 450,000 in the county). So I looked at it for myself:

Now 95% of the people in this district figured it out just fine. There was another district that used a similar ballot for a different office and no problems were reported. Reform Party votes in this district were of a similar percentage in a recent congressional race as they were in the Presidential race this time. What is the problem?

Eagler · « **Reply #6 on:** November 12, 2000, 10:29:00 AM »

Looks clear to me, but I'm a Republican

Now we are going to spend millions of dollars trying to create an idiot proof ballot. Talk about an unending process. I think there will always be an idiot who can't figure out a particular ballot.

I think the problem was that the arrow was not flashing at #5.

Very disturbing precedence being set in SE FL this weekend.

God help us all

Eagler

Dinger · « **Reply #7 on:** November 12, 2000, 12:00:00 PM »

Well, sure they are morons. But here's why the ballot doesn't work:
The logical order of the printed portion of the ballot is top-down, left-to-right, not left-to-right, top-down, but the holes to be punched follow a top-down order.
"Huh?" you say. "What the hell is Dinger going on about?"

Look at the ballot: On the left side are the major party candidates, followed by the minor party candidates. The minor party candidates continue on the right side and the ballot ends on the bottom right with the write-in candidate.
This is the official order of the ballot and the one controlled by Florida law.
Now, the punch holes going top-down (and the numbers on the printed ballot) mix the left and right sides of the ballot so the order "Major party-minor party-write-in" is ignored.
What this means is that whoever designed the ballot (partisan affiliation of designers or approvers of this ballot is only relevant if the accusation is fraud, such as the Bush campaign's argument for stopping a hand recount), intended for it to be read top-down, left-right, but punched left-right, top-down. If you want to argue that the printed numbers (BUsh 3, Buchanan 4, Gore 5) indicate the real order of the ballot, then it is technically invalid by Florida Lww as it puts minor party candidates before major party ones.
Whether this confusion provides legal grounds for anything whatsoever has to be decided by the courts. No precedent that has been posted (or rather spammed here) is absolutely controlling in this case.

So quit your whining, grab a beer, and watch public officials from both parties make royal tulips of themselves.

Kieren · « **Reply #8 on:** November 12, 2000, 01:54:00 PM »

I could have performed a satisfactory vote there withing 20 seconds of looking at that paper. I am only of average intelligence and could figure that one out.

That is not the issue. The issue is whether anyone can prove there was in any way anything illegal or even intentionally misleading or any kind of bias shown by either party during the election. The answer is "no".

Should the Democrats ask for a revote in such a close election? Sure. They had it. Now they want another, and another, and another... targeting areas that are certain to give them more votes, ensuring anything but an unbiased result. Now the Republicans are forced to threaten a recount in other counties that are strong Republican areas, and the Democrats are calling them hypocrits. The Republicans have no choice because allowing the multiple selective recounts will certainly result in a Gore administration.

Seriously, Gore will win this fight I fear. He is far more used to this type of game than Bush is.

Snoopi · « **Reply #9 on:** November 12, 2000, 04:12:00 PM »

What do you guys figure the point of this is ?

I would think the actual intended vote is what is important.
Not whether the ballot was illegal/legal.
Not whether the people who screwed up are stupid.

Just curious how most people feel.

Regards, Snoopi
------------------------------------------
A Quote from a friend of mine.
"THE THEORY OF STATISICAL STUPIDITY:
If you are in the top 50% of the population with regard to intelligence..
Then most of the people you meet are dumber than you."

Obvious, but kinda scary.
It also explains a lot about how your day went.

[This message has been edited by Snoopi (edited 11-12-2000).]

Kieren · « **Reply #10 on:** November 12, 2000, 04:35:00 PM »

Snoopi-

What is important is that the government not invest in the divination business, that is, not trying to guess what I intended when I cast my vote. The fundamental problem, or divergence of thinking anyway, is whether or not you want the government controlling too much of your life. Telling people what they really meant to do is pretty darn close to me.

What next? I became a teacher, but the government decides I meant to be a ditch digger. I live in Indiana, but they decide I meant to live in New York. Get the idea?

There is no way to put this egg back together. There is no way to redo the vote without changing what the outcome would have been. The DNC does not care, they don't care about the precedent set here, they are going to go at all costs for the office.

There is no perfect solution. Would I want the will of the people done? Yes. But changing the rules to get the outcome you desire is not sane. The constitution makes our government rigid enough not to have flippant changes (such as the suggestions of Hillary on electoral college).

Here I sit listening once again to some DNC talking head talk about abolishing the electoral college. Naturally he is from D.C., a huge metropolitan area that would be one of perhaps a dozen large U.S. cities that would have any voice in government should that proposal become law. Kiss the Republican party good-bye, or any other party for that matter.

And don't you think it odd that the Democrats want to hand count votes only in Democratic strongholds? That they resist the suggestion that the Republicans go and recount Republican strongholds? That they think it would be wrong for the Republicans to contest states where the vote is close? After all, don't they want to see what the "will of the people" is?

No. They want to keep juggling the data until it is Gore. Fairness has not one single thing to do with this whole affair.

DmdBT · « **Reply #11 on:** November 12, 2000, 04:37:00 PM »

The recount doesn't bother me one bit. What does bother me is this recount by hand that the counters are to determine the "intent" of the voter. If there are Democrat choices made elsewhere and Buchanan was chosen as President, then, of course, the voter must have really wanted Gore and made a mistake therefore thay are to count the vote for Gore. Also, as stated by the Repubs, this process opens up the floodgate for potential error (good old human error, that is), the risk of having the vote tampered with purposefully, and the risk of damaging the ballots from excesive handling... the paper is cheap guys!
We may as well resign ourselves to a Gore presidency, through lawyer trickery and typical Republican buffoonery/lack of "testicular fortitude", we're gonna lose this fight.

T

Dinger · « **Reply #12 on:** November 12, 2000, 05:11:00 PM »

Sorry, any interpretation of the voter's intent to vote Gore from a ballot marked Buchanan would constitute fraud.
Any legal measure taken to pass the Buchanan votes to Gore would be thrown out of court.
The government is already determining your will in this matter: someone's got to read the ballot and say how many there are. I don't see how you can argue from "The Government's job is to determine the will of the people as expressed in popular elections"
to "If we let the government determine as accurately as possible the will of the people in this area, then they will arbitrarily determine what we want to do for us." That kinda slippery slope doesn't seem justified.

Snoopi · « **Reply #13 on:** November 14, 2000, 09:22:00 PM »

Kieren: Just the kind of input I was looking for.

The reason I asked what the point was:
I see a lot of posts that imply stupid people's votes are less important.
I.E. if they are dumb then screw them.

I agree that any ballot, that is in question, for any reason, should not be counted, otherwise the risk of tampering is there.

Those who have bad eyesight or misunderstand, should be helped to realize that they can ask questions in regards to the ballot BEFORE they vote.
(I am assuming this is OK in the U.S.)

At this point, they should just do a recount of VALID ballots and call it done. Anything else is too "dangerous".

I see this whole thing as a no win situation. No matter the outcome the doubt will be there.

IN regards to the "Damn Democrats" "Damn Republicans" kinda posts....
If the tables were turned, the Republicans would no doubt be maneuvering too. That is what politicians do.

Republicans ? Democrats ? who cares ? On paper they look the same.
It seems the REAL government is those who have the money to fund, lobby etc.

Just like the O.J. trial made a joke of the U.S. Criminal System.
Unfortunately, this fiasco might make a laughing stock of the U.S. Political System.
I fear it already has.

[This message has been edited by Snoopi (edited 11-14-2000).]

CavemanJ · « **Reply #14 on:** November 14, 2000, 10:01:00 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Snoopi:
Those who have bad eyesight or misunderstand, should be helped to realize that they can ask questions in regards to the ballot BEFORE they vote.

The reason the election supervisor designed the ballot the way she did (as I read in news stories, and how they quoted her anyway) was to use a larger type because there are alot of older people in Palm Beach county. She was trying to help them from the start, making the ballot easier to read, with larger type. Kudos to her for doing that.

Where the "stupidity" comes in is, IMO, a lack of personal responsibility. The right to vote is one of the most solemn rights we have. Rushing through your ballot because you dinnae want to be late for the bridge club isn't a valid reason to ask for a revote or even to complain.

The picture of the ballot, in the machine, shows just how easy it is to select your candidate. Each candidate and thier running mate are in thier own box, and each box has an arrow pointing to the proper punch hole. I can't see any bases for claims of a confusing ballot. Especially when a voter can ask for, and recieve, a new ballot to correct any mistakes (and the old ballot is discarded).

I blame people for not taking the time and personal responsibility to make sure they were voting for thier candidate. If they dinnae understand the ballot they could ask someone for help. But, frankly, I can't see why they would need to unless they forgot thier glasses (and if vanity kept them from asking for help they deserve what they got IMO).