Author Topic: A solution for low level Buff groups  (Read 2298 times)

Offline Killjoy2

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A solution for low level Buff groups
« Reply #60 on: September 06, 2006, 03:35:05 PM »
We need SHARKS with frickin lazer beams on their heads.

Offline CBFASI

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A solution for low level Buff groups
« Reply #61 on: September 06, 2006, 04:35:45 PM »
A couple of possible features that could make use of low level bombers harder and in thoery less likely...

1.  Allow only single egg drops from a  bomber with a minimum time span of say 10-15 secs between each when below say 2.5k

This would stop mass egg drops on single tanks and would mean at most 3 eggs on target... if lucky..

If thatpilot wants to do more then they would have to handle the craft carefully to avoid losing any drones on a turn,  to thenbe able to run and drop another egg, this in essence makes for a much l;onger time over target and only those that are dealing with gvs and NO air support are really going to suffer most.. (this is afterall a FLIGHTSIM!).

2. Only allow eggs to be dropped with say a limit of  5deg nose drop, not however affecting bank or climb angle.

 the last two allow for escape evasion from low level strikes however not all the heavies could take this punishment on the airframe.  It would also allow for emergency dumping of loads which I have done in past to increase climb rates fast when a hill is spotted!

Some may know that I am often a Lancaster on patrol for GV's or sometime up because I only one around.  I dont get many hits with Lanc's on gv's and will use single egg salvos, with much rather 14 individual trys that may get a target each if extremely lucky (not happened yet!), than 1 big 14 on a Tiger, which can still miss..

I still can't get over the day I dropped a single egg from 15k with a single Lanc on a 'guess' and sunk a PT boat!  I not been that lucky since..

Low level bombers can be killed easy, I ought to know I have lost many trying to avoid fighters and flak but too often I have got to a target with no oppostion, once a fighter or multiple flak's up I know my lifeline just got shortened unless I quick and scarper.. (I have managed to escape small number of times)

It is worth remebering that Lancasters DID take out full tiger companies in Normandy... I have pictures of that after affect of mulitple 1000'lb on them, anyone for flipping Tigers?

Yes the high volume of low level bombers in use is not historical, but then neither is running C47's into a contested airfield, or having units flying P51 and Niki together, or for that matter every 'nation' having exactly the same design of ships...

We play within the limits of the game and this is how this whole Aces High works.

Some features are removed or present to make gameply more enjoyable, learn to work with them.


If you want historical then go for all the limits and resrtictions, like the number of hours between sorties! how about real time ie NIGHT that lasts hours etc...

Offline Reynolds

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A solution for low level Buff groups
« Reply #62 on: September 06, 2006, 05:12:21 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by CBFASI
A couple of possible features that could make use of low level bombers harder and in thoery less likely...

1.  Allow only single egg drops from a  bomber with a minimum time span of say 10-15 secs between each when below say 2.5k

This would stop mass egg drops on single tanks and would mean at most 3 eggs on target... if lucky..

 than 1 big 14 on a Tiger, which can still miss..

I still can't get over the day I dropped a single egg from 15k with a single Lanc on a 'guess' and sunk a PT boat!  I not been that lucky since..




LOL. Yup. Ive had a lanc DIVE BOMBE my Panzer, drop 14 bombs (Everyone in range heard me say "Aw S&%*t im dead...") AND HE MISSED BY A FREAKING MILE!!! lol

Offline MadSquirrel

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« Reply #63 on: September 08, 2006, 04:28:49 AM »
Bombs are nothing but a blind mans shotgun.  The lamest player in the game can kill a GV with bombs.  It takes absolutly no skill at all to drop a 4000 lbs. Bomb from a Lamecaster and kill a ground vehilce.  And least we forget that they will also let loose with the rest of the 42,000 lbs of bombs as well.  Saw one guy tonight come over at tree top level in B-26s, Lamecasters, B-24s and some B-17s.  All the time just spraying bombs.  Give me a break.  Luckly there were only two of us that took the base so he didn't have many targets to drop on.  I don't think he ever hit anything other than the fuel dump and maybe the sheeps pen.  5 to 6 Ostwind hits per buff on one sometimes two before he bailed on the rest so he could reup.

Put heavy bombers back in the sky and take the lawn mower attatchments off.

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Offline CBFASI

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A solution for low level Buff groups
« Reply #64 on: September 08, 2006, 11:07:05 AM »
Your right anyone can kill a gv if they drop most their eggs from Lancasters or other Bombers, but to do so with just one pass and 1 egg takes more skill than most fighter pilots or high level buffers would like to admit..

To carpet bomb takes 0 skill and is jsut that and both WW2 and since has shown that its an ineffective use of manpower and resources, but this is not represented in AH so its not considered, thing about low buffs is any fighter pilot worth being called that can take them out.

If you a GV without any air cover and bombers come you way... tough luck, you should of had some air cover.

The nature of most of this WW2 kit requries teamwork to complete a capture and often many forget this..

If you can sneak a GV attack and capture then good for you but all it takes is a couple of guys to notice somethings up and aircover will soon be on its way to annoy you.

Offline MadSquirrel

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« Reply #65 on: September 08, 2006, 12:49:06 PM »
You are so right.  Low level buffs avoid the hoards and furball clusters.  But most of the time, that is where all the fighters are.  If I am flying Buffs, I fly around enemy cons so as to give me the best chance for a successful drop on my objective.  

As for the one bomb drop skill, let us take a look at that for a moment.  

In a ground vehicle, I am sending a 37mm projectile towards a vehicle traveling from 200 to 500 miles per hour in varying directions.  This projectile must come into contact with the vehicle to damage or destroy it.

In a Bomber, in the worst case, I am dropping a bomb on a vehicle that might be moving at best 25 miles per hour.  Now I don't need to hit this vehicle, just get anywhere near it, say 50 to maybe 250 foot or more kill radius.

Now a skilled armor driver can sometimes maneuver enough to avoid the kill zone, just as a skilled buff driver can avoid Flak rounds.  One major difference is the Ostwind can't get above falling bombs but a buff can easily get above Ostwind fire.  Buffs have 3 vehicles with which to drop thousands of pounds of bombs and armor has only one chance.  

Now lets address the low-level dweebs.  They are easy to shoot down with planes.  Come in, strafe and egress.  Ground vehicles have no egress.  Sit and take it.  Knowing this, every no skill looser of a tank battle will go get a box of Lamecasters and carpet bomb the battlefield.  Our ground defense against Bombers is so lame it isn't funny.  

Now for the tactical low level bombing, that is somewhat different in that there is precedence for that other than "I can't hit crap with a Tank so I will just carpet bomb them" mentality.  If I am defending a base and low-level buffs come in to destroy the VHs or other tactical target salute to you mate.  If I am alone I might get one or maybe two on the first pass if they are low.  I can kill two of them and they can still drop bombs.  Hummm.

We need better ground defense.

Nothing is going to change the dweebs carpet bombing GVs with heavy bombers.  Nothing is going to stop dive bombing Lamecasters doing the pop and drop.  As long as HTC allows it, the no skill dweebs will use it.

My posts are from the point of view of a ground vehicle player.  Most if not all the other posts are from people that are primarily flyers.  So I am a bit more annoyed at the lame use of bombers.  It has less of an effect on flyers.  Usually the first building destroyed at an airfield is the VH hanger.  And we only have one of them, not 3 or more.  At a V-Base we have 3 hangers and two auto flaks and one manned flak.  All of which can be taken down by the worst pilot in the air with 1 microburst of cannon fire. After all, Flak batteries have paper armor and are not entrenched or in any way protected.

We need better ground defenses period.  That will solve the Buff problem.

LTARsqrl  <>

:aok

Offline Masherbrum

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A solution for low level Buff groups
« Reply #66 on: September 08, 2006, 01:17:25 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Waffle BAS
3 words for the phoneticaly impaired....plo-est-i


Hitting a LARGE OIL REFINERY/FIELD is much different than rolling a formation to hit a Tiger.    If yer gonna use HISTORY, apply it to the game as well.
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Offline Masherbrum

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A solution for low level Buff groups
« Reply #67 on: September 08, 2006, 01:20:03 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by MadSquirrel
You are so right.  Low level buffs avoid the hoards and furball clusters.  But most of the time, that is where all the fighters are.  If I am flying Buffs, I fly around enemy cons so as to give me the best chance for a successful drop on my objective.  

As for the one bomb drop skill, let us take a look at that for a moment.  

In a ground vehicle, I am sending a 37mm projectile towards a vehicle traveling from 200 to 500 miles per hour in varying directions.  This projectile must come into contact with the vehicle to damage or destroy it.

In a Bomber, in the worst case, I am dropping a bomb on a vehicle that might be moving at best 25 miles per hour.  Now I don't need to hit this vehicle, just get anywhere near it, say 50 to maybe 250 foot or more kill radius.

Now a skilled armor driver can sometimes maneuver enough to avoid the kill zone, just as a skilled buff driver can avoid Flak rounds.  One major difference is the Ostwind can't get above falling bombs but a buff can easily get above Ostwind fire.  Buffs have 3 vehicles with which to drop thousands of pounds of bombs and armor has only one chance.  

Now lets address the low-level dweebs.  They are easy to shoot down with planes.  Come in, strafe and egress.  Ground vehicles have no egress.  Sit and take it.  Knowing this, every no skill looser of a tank battle will go get a box of Lamecasters and carpet bomb the battlefield.  Our ground defense against Bombers is so lame it isn't funny.  

Now for the tactical low level bombing, that is somewhat different in that there is precedence for that other than "I can't hit crap with a Tank so I will just carpet bomb them" mentality.  If I am defending a base and low-level buffs come in to destroy the VHs or other tactical target salute to you mate.  If I am alone I might get one or maybe two on the first pass if they are low.  I can kill two of them and they can still drop bombs.  Hummm.

We need better ground defense.

Nothing is going to change the dweebs carpet bombing GVs with heavy bombers.  Nothing is going to stop dive bombing Lamecasters doing the pop and drop.  As long as HTC allows it, the no skill dweebs will use it.

My posts are from the point of view of a ground vehicle player.  Most if not all the other posts are from people that are primarily flyers.  So I am a bit more annoyed at the lame use of bombers.  It has less of an effect on flyers.  Usually the first building destroyed at an airfield is the VH hanger.  And we only have one of them, not 3 or more.  At a V-Base we have 3 hangers and two auto flaks and one manned flak.  All of which can be taken down by the worst pilot in the air with 1 microburst of cannon fire. After all, Flak batteries have paper armor and are not entrenched or in any way protected.

We need better ground defenses period.  That will solve the Buff problem.

LTARsqrl  <>

:aok


Awesome post, sums up any issues I have as well.
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Offline stephen

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A solution for low level Buff groups
« Reply #68 on: September 08, 2006, 05:03:05 PM »
fellas in ww2 the tanks where lucky {german} to have a flak panzer or two, and most of the time time the only aircover they got was nme aircover, that said I like to think im pretty good in an ostwind, and if I can see a lanc coming chances are ill get that lead plane just as hes dropping, the rest is just dumb luck if he misses I live and fire as he passes, if I die then its back to the ole' tower.....only thing i can say is when you see that dweeb running low in his lancs drive as fast as you can to whatever side hes less apt to turn, and fill his belly with 37mm.:aok
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Offline Reynolds

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« Reply #69 on: September 08, 2006, 06:32:06 PM »
Yes but often there was other cover for them to hide in, trees, buildings, the like which would cause their attackers NOT to drop. If they didnt have a target in sight, they wouldnt drop. Also, the tactics in this game are horrid. Perk the Lancaster, perk the 17, perk EVERYTHING excpet the A-20, the SBD, the Japanese dive bomber and the Stuka. AND the same way you less perks if you ditch, you lose less perks if you are killed by an enmy than if you crash thanks to dive-bombing. Also incorperate the whole if angle=X then you blow the s%$& outa yerself. AND, evden better, make people chose their bomb-drop altitude (Withint 1000 feet), and if you are outside of that altitude, the bombs detonate early, OR late. So yeah, make level bombing HARDER, MORE COMPLICATED, MORE SOPHISTICATED, MORE REAL!!! And dont say "I <3 bombers, so you SUCK!!!" NO! I fly bombers too, and these things would only make it more fun for us REAL guys. Hell, my boys fly tight, we fly real, and yet we still have fun. WTF is up with that?!? (<--- Sarcasm) So yeah, make bombing HARDER, but make it easier to get perk points. Make Heavy bombers exclusive, so only those dedicated to bombing will actually do it. There. I like that idea.

Offline MadSquirrel

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« Reply #70 on: September 08, 2006, 08:38:48 PM »
Here is the problem with that idea.  Fly a perk fighter around and watch the "Wanna Bees" swarm you like nobodies business.  You want to see a hoard then look behind you.  

Buffs are easy kills from the air.  Perking buffs would just be putting a price on their heads.  Where it might reduce the lame Buff drivers, the real Bomber Aces would pay the price.

The only correction that in my opinion needs to be made is bombs can only be dropped from the F6 position and only after being in the F6 position for 5 seconds. The other thing and might I add the most important thing is to give bases and ground units some effective Flak weapons to work with.  You know, such as the 8.8-cm Flak 41 or the 5-cm Flak 41.

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Offline Reynolds

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« Reply #71 on: September 08, 2006, 09:42:45 PM »
Well, im saying make people pay for bombers. Dont make them worth any more to an enemy, just make them cost.

Offline MadSquirrel

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« Reply #72 on: September 09, 2006, 01:18:12 AM »
Same result.  

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Offline Reynolds

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« Reply #73 on: September 09, 2006, 03:23:49 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by MadSquirrel
Same result.  

LTARsqrl  <>


How so? If you get no more perks for killing BUFFs then than you do now, why would you swarm them more in the future? I think, I know this is going to be rejected, but in the beggining of the game you have to decide: Fighters or Bombers, and if you chose fighters you can only fly A-20s, SBDs, Ju-87s, and that Japanese dive bomber for bombing, and if you pick Bombers, you can only fly like P-40s, and other real HIGH ENY fighters. And if you decide to switch you lose ALL of your perk points.

Offline Overlag

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« Reply #74 on: September 09, 2006, 06:31:19 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Killjoy2
Wrong Kurt.  I actually appreciate buffs that climb to alt.  It has some realism.  But I've had it with bomber boxes circling a field and attacking at low level. There's no incentive to not do it.  Buff Boxes are free.  

But this is an elegant solution.  

(hint) FIX the Buffs.  Eliminate dive bombing Lancs, B17's and B24s.  Perk the formations.


arnt bomber pilots punished enough?
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