Author Topic: Ice bubbles reveal biggest rise in CO2 for 800,000 years  (Read 4084 times)

Offline Angus

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Ice bubbles reveal biggest rise in CO2 for 800,000 years
« Reply #165 on: September 19, 2006, 09:19:49 AM »
So, I guess that the above proves that despite the oceans warming and glacers and polar ice retreating, the whole thing just isn't happening :huh

Oh, yes. The polar caps are melting because of underwater volcanoes, Glaciers like in the alps, - well, must be a misunderstanding (What was it to be expected, mostly GONE in a 100 years?).
There is no greenhouseffect, just doesn't work that way (so forget about terraforming mars).
And the earth is flat and 600o years old.


Well, still stuck in the ice, but again, it's because it's a very clear and non-debateable fact.....
It was very interesting to carry out the flight trials at Rechlin with the Spitfire and the Hurricane. Both types are very simple to fly compared to our aircraft, and childishly easy to take-off and land. (Werner Mölders)

Offline lazs2

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Ice bubbles reveal biggest rise in CO2 for 800,000 years
« Reply #166 on: September 19, 2006, 09:23:03 AM »
angus.... might I point out that it was you who insisted that the whole cause of any climate change was evil manmade causes and that it was not debateable and that we could do something about it right now and should be and that.... it was not debateable.

Now that counter evidence shows up you scream "no fair"?

lazs

Offline Jackal1

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Ice bubbles reveal biggest rise in CO2 for 800,000 years
« Reply #167 on: September 19, 2006, 09:27:38 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Angus
So, I guess that the above proves that despite the oceans warming and glacers and polar ice retreating, the whole thing just isn't happening :huh

.


No Angus. Don`t give up on your whole cause. Ice melts when weather patterns change and the temp becomes warmer. Water freezes and becomes ice when the weather patterns changes and the temp becomes colder. It`s always worked like that. :)
You just got to get over the fact the ice is melting and blaming it on a fairy tale. Then you will be all set. :)
Did you believe , perhaps, that ice never melts?
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MYTH #6: 'Sea level is Rising Quickly and it Will Get Worse if the Polar Ice Caps Melt Due to Global Warming. Coastal Settlements and Low-lying Islands Will be Submerged.'

 Sea level has been rising naturally since the end of the last ice age and this has not accelerated recently The total rise has been over 120 metres and is still proceeding at a rate of about 18 cm per century. We don't see an increase in this rate during the strong warming that took place between 1900 and 1940 nor did the rate decrease when the climate cooled between 1940 and 1975.

According to Dr. Fred Singer, President of The Science & Environmental Policy Project, Distinguished Research Professor at George Mason University and Professor Emeritus of environmental science at the University of Virginia, ongoing sea level rise is due to the slow melting of Antarctic ice sheets that have been gradually disappearing for about 18,000 years, the date of the last glacial maximum. As far as we can tell from geological data, only temperature variations on a millennial time scale can affect this rate. Climate fluctuations lasting decades or even centuries are too short to affect this rate of melting appreciably. Our best estimate is that these ice sheets will continue to melt for another 5,000 to 7,000 years until they disappear. So unless another ice age commences in the meantime, sea level is bound to keep on rising and there is probably nothing that humans can do about this.

It is also important to understand that, just as the melting of ice cubes in a glass of water does not cause the glass to overflow, the melting of polar sea ice will not result in ocean level changes. Only if massive quantities of inland Antarctic and Greenland glaciers melted would sea levels raise enough to submerge coastal settlements. Dr. Patterson and University of Hawaii Professor of Earth Science Dr. Charles Fletcher maintain that this did not happen 5,500 years ago, when the Earth was three degrees warmer. They also explain that sea level was only two meters higher 120,000 years ago, when temperatures were almost six degrees warmer than now.

Ordinarily, small island-nations like the Maldives and Barbados are not threatened by such a rise. This is because these countries are built entirely on coral and coral fragments. This coral is continually, and quickly, growing upward and, unless something very bad happens to the natural environment in a region, no sea level rise is fast enough to get ahead of coral growth. The Maldivian reefs have been coping with increasing sea level for the past few thousand years and were even able to keep up when the ocean was rising ten times faster than it is now, 10,000 years ago.

Oceanographer Klaus Schwarzer of Christian Albrechts University in Germany explains that today's problems in the Maldives are caused by two factors - local pollution that is killing the reefs (as is the case in Barbados) and inappropriate construction projects. Barriers built out into the ocean to stop the drift of sediment away from the coast are disrupting the circulation of nutrient rich water to the reefs and killing them.

As a result, the Maldives islands are sinking. This has nothing to do with climate change and is the fault of the Maldivian government, which selected a barrier design maladapted for a coral atoll (it was designed for the rock-based Mediterranean Sea coast). Yet, Ismail Shafeeu, the Maldives' Minister of the Environment, still complains, "In the next hundred years or so, what the rest of the world does is going to determine whether we are going to be around or not. We need commitment on the part of people living in countries that are causing this problem. If these countries and the people living in these countries do not change their lifestyles in a way that will allow us to survive, they will have the murder of a nation on their hands." Clearly, Mr. Shafeeu is either misinformed about the science or is engaging in propaganda.

The Barbados has lost nearly all of their reefs due to runoff from their own agriculture. Their wells are becoming more salty simply because they are extracting so much water to irrigate crops that they are actually drawing sea water into their aquifers. As in the Maldives, its problems are caused by flawed domestic practices and have nothing to do with climate change.

If the U.N. and environmental groups are genuinely interested in solving environmental problems in the Maldives and other developing countries, then they should focus on their true causes. To do otherwise virtually guarantees these problems will continue, no matter how sensational an example it provides for climate change alarmists.
Democracy is two wolves deciding on what to eat. Freedom is a well armed sheep protesting the vote.
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Offline Angus

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Ice bubbles reveal biggest rise in CO2 for 800,000 years
« Reply #168 on: September 19, 2006, 09:46:41 AM »
"No Angus. Don`t give up on your whole cause. Ice melts when weather patterns change and the temp becomes warmer. Water freezes and becomes ice when the weather patterns changes and the temp becomes colder. It`s always worked like that.
You just got to get over the fact the ice is melting and blaming it on a fairy tale. Then you will be all set.
Did you believe , perhaps, that ice never melts?"

At that speed, it's creepy, and if this is keeping on at the same speed we're going to have the permafrost farting at us in the next 100 years. That's what the doomsday theory is all about.
Our example of melting is a record, be it post ice age, and even before it. It corresponds nice and paralell with our increase in CO2 amongst other things, so I do belive it's sort of "our" pattern this time.
It was very interesting to carry out the flight trials at Rechlin with the Spitfire and the Hurricane. Both types are very simple to fly compared to our aircraft, and childishly easy to take-off and land. (Werner Mölders)

Offline Angus

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Ice bubbles reveal biggest rise in CO2 for 800,000 years
« Reply #169 on: September 19, 2006, 09:55:39 AM »
A pity that this is not your lingo.
http://www.mbl.is/mm/frettir/togt/frett.html?nid=1224401

Bottom line, those quoted scientists belive that the sudden warming in the last decades only has a 5% chance of being from "natural" causes.

Now, we can quote articles forever. I rather like to use my own nose and look at the data.
The data is hard, and in some places of the world (like mine) more clear to the senses than in other parts.
It was very interesting to carry out the flight trials at Rechlin with the Spitfire and the Hurricane. Both types are very simple to fly compared to our aircraft, and childishly easy to take-off and land. (Werner Mölders)

Offline -dead-

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Ice bubbles reveal biggest rise in CO2 for 800,000 years
« Reply #170 on: September 19, 2006, 11:51:23 AM »
Here's a fun global warming time sink.
 I started you off with Jackal's 4 main authors on the left. Fill in the blanks, follow the funding. Enjoy.

And as for the Cooler heads Coalition, members include groups who took cash from tobacco industry to deny that second-hand smoke was harmful, a group (paid by Microsoft) that announced a book claiming Linus Torvalds did not invent Linux; and that claims Open Source Software, and Linux in particular, is dangerous, insecure, and illegal. It also includes the Competitive Enterprise Institute (see the map far right) and the National Center for Policy Analysis (see map middle). There's even some Jack Abramoff illegal action.
Cooler heads indeed.

I deliberately left off S. Fred Singer because he just clutters it with all his Exxon-funded orgs. Suffice to say he's special.
“The FBI has no hard evidence connecting Usama Bin Laden to 9/11.” --  Rex Tomb, Chief of Investigative Publicity for the FBI, June 5, 2006.

Offline lukster

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Ice bubbles reveal biggest rise in CO2 for 800,000 years
« Reply #171 on: September 19, 2006, 12:24:53 PM »
Hey dead, get's to warm for ya just move.

Offline IgnorantJoe

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Ice bubbles reveal biggest rise in CO2 for 800,000 years
« Reply #172 on: September 19, 2006, 12:34:11 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Angus
Now, we can quote articles forever. I rather like to use my own nose and look at the data.
The data is hard, and in some places of the world (like mine) more clear to the senses than in other parts.


So, taking core samples in one location consitutes hard data?  What if I take a phone survey using only people in the phone book; would you consider my results to be hard data?

And why is data clearer to the senses in your part of the world compared to other parts of the world?

Offline Holden McGroin

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Ice bubbles reveal biggest rise in CO2 for 800,000 years
« Reply #173 on: September 19, 2006, 01:31:50 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Angus
Bottom line, those quoted scientists belive that the sudden warming in the last decades only has a 5% chance of being from "natural" causes.


Quote
Originally posted by -dead-
I started you off with Jackal's 4 main authors on the left. Fill in the blanks, follow the funding. Enjoy.


source

Quote
ALEX BEAM
MIT's Inconvenient Scientist
By Alex Beam, Globe Columnist  |  August 30, 2006

Speech codes are rare in the industrialized, Western democracies. In Germany and Austria, for instance, it is forbidden to proselytize Nazi ideology or trivialize the Holocaust. Given those countries' recent histories, that is a restraint on free expression we can live with.

More curious are our own taboos on the subject of global warming. I sat in a roomful of journalists 10 years ago while Stanford climatologist Stephen Schneider lectured us on a big problem in our profession: soliciting opposing points of view. In the debate over climate change, Schneider said, there simply was no legitimate opposing view to the scientific consensus that man - made carbon emissions drive global warming. To suggest or report otherwise, he said, was irresponsible.

Indeed. I attended a week's worth of lectures on global warming at the Chautauqua Institution last month. Al Gore delivered the kickoff lecture, and, 10 years later, he reiterated Schneider's directive. There is no science on the other side, Gore inveighed, more than once. Again, the same message: If you hear tales of doubt, ignore them. They are simply untrue.

I ask you: Are these convincing arguments? And directed at journalists, who are natural questioners and skeptics, of all people? What happens when you are told not to eat the apple, not to read that book, not to date that girl? Your interest is piqued, of course. What am I not supposed to know?

Here's the kind of information the ``scientific consensus" types don't want you to read. MIT's Alfred P. Sloan professor of meteorology Richard Lindzen recently complained about the ``shrill alarmism" of Gore's movie ``An Inconvenient Truth." Lindzen acknowledges that global warming is real, and he acknowledges that increased carbon emissions might be causing the warming -- but they also might not.

"We do not understand the natural internal variability of climate change" is one of Lindzen's many heresies, along with such zingers as "the Arctic was as warm or warmer in 1940," "the evidence so far suggests that the Greenland ice sheet is actually growing on average," and ``Alpine glaciers have been retreating since the early 19th century, and were advancing for several centuries before that. Since about 1970, many of the glaciers have stopped retreating and some are now advancing again. And, frankly, we don't know why."  


Prof Lindzen is paid by MIT.
Holden McGroin LLC makes every effort to provide accurate and complete information. Since humor, irony, and keen insight may be foreign to some readers, no warranty, expressed or implied is offered. Re-writing this disclaimer cost me big bucks at the lawyer’s office!

Offline Angus

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Ice bubbles reveal biggest rise in CO2 for 800,000 years
« Reply #174 on: September 19, 2006, 01:46:18 PM »
I for myself had heard that the oil companies funded global warming denialists. I didn't want to bring it up though, although some on these threads have chosen to throw the poop at government reasearches.
The best remains, it seems that the US is the host for global warming denialism. The rest of the world is aleady past that. Not all with doing, but with realizing.
However, Exxon will have to pay very much before one stops to be able to read the temp gauge :D
It was very interesting to carry out the flight trials at Rechlin with the Spitfire and the Hurricane. Both types are very simple to fly compared to our aircraft, and childishly easy to take-off and land. (Werner Mölders)

Offline Angus

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Ice bubbles reveal biggest rise in CO2 for 800,000 years
« Reply #175 on: September 19, 2006, 01:48:18 PM »
Here is a part of the nonsense about:
""We do not understand the natural internal variability of climate change" is one of Lindzen's many heresies, along with such zingers as "the Arctic was as warm or warmer in 1940," "the evidence so far suggests that the Greenland ice sheet is actually growing on average," and ``Alpine glaciers have been retreating since the early 19th century, and were advancing for several centuries before that. Since about 1970, many of the glaciers have stopped retreating and some are now advancing again. And, frankly, we don't know why.""

ROFL  :rofl :rofl

Has a whiff of the Holocaut denialists. I even read that Auschwitz did not exist, but when I went and had a lookie, it did. So did the Greenland Glacier, but the locals said it was schrinking....
It was very interesting to carry out the flight trials at Rechlin with the Spitfire and the Hurricane. Both types are very simple to fly compared to our aircraft, and childishly easy to take-off and land. (Werner Mölders)

Offline Holden McGroin

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Ice bubbles reveal biggest rise in CO2 for 800,000 years
« Reply #176 on: September 19, 2006, 02:09:10 PM »
If you think a MIT meterology professor is funny, this should be hilarious...

"Retreat of the Little Ice Age glaciers was slow until about 1920 when retreat became more rapid. Between the height of the Little Ice Age and 1950, Mount Rainier's glaciers lost about one-quarter of their length. Beginning in 1950 and continuing through the early 1980's, however, many of the major glaciers advanced in response to relatively cooler temperatures of the mid-century. The Carbon, Cowlitz, Emmons, and Nisqually Glaciers advanced during the late 1970's and early 1980's as a result of high snowfalls during the 1960's and 1970's"

"In 1986 and 2002, Hubbard Glacier closed the entrance to Russell Fiord, blocking tidal flow between the Fiord and Disenchantment Bay at Gilbert Point. The water level in the new Russell Lake rose to an elevation of 83 feet above sea level in 1986 and 61 feet in 2002. Both times, the ice/moraine dam broke before water overtopped into the Situk River."

"On the Arctic island of Novaya Zemlya, the glaciers retreated rapidly before 1920 but the retreat then slowed. After 1950, more than half of the glaciers stopped retreating, and many tidewater glaciers began to advance. The islands temperatures in the last four decades have been lower than the previous 40 years in both the winter and the summer."

"In New Zealand, equilibrium line altitude (ELA) measurements of fifty index glaciers "spread throughout the length and width of the Southern Alps" have likewise revealed "two periods of positive mass balances from 1980 to 1987 and from 1991 to 1997. Franz Josef Glacier, which "regained 1200 m from 1984 to 2000, an extension which recovered a significant 41% of length lost since 1900."
Holden McGroin LLC makes every effort to provide accurate and complete information. Since humor, irony, and keen insight may be foreign to some readers, no warranty, expressed or implied is offered. Re-writing this disclaimer cost me big bucks at the lawyer’s office!

Offline -dead-

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Ice bubbles reveal biggest rise in CO2 for 800,000 years
« Reply #177 on: September 20, 2006, 02:40:46 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Holden McGroin
source

 

Prof Lindzen is paid by MIT.
And the Cato Institute (same as John Christy), Tech Central Science Foundation (same as Tim Patterson & Tim Ball), and the George C Marshall Institute. Heck he's even turned up to a meeting or two of the Cooler Heads Coalition.

Ross Gelbspan reported in 1995 that Lindzen "charges oil and coal interests $2,500 a day for his consulting services; his 1991 trip to testify before a Senate committee was paid for by Western Fuels, and a speech he wrote, entitled 'Global Warming: the Origin and Nature of Alleged Scientific Consensus,' was underwritten by OPEC." ("The Heat is On: The warming of the world's climate sparks a blaze of denial," Harper's magazine, December 1995.)

You just type his name in, and off you go... try it yourself.
“The FBI has no hard evidence connecting Usama Bin Laden to 9/11.” --  Rex Tomb, Chief of Investigative Publicity for the FBI, June 5, 2006.

Offline Angus

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Ice bubbles reveal biggest rise in CO2 for 800,000 years
« Reply #178 on: September 20, 2006, 05:02:41 AM »
No, oil companies sponsoring global warming denialists? NEVER :D
It was very interesting to carry out the flight trials at Rechlin with the Spitfire and the Hurricane. Both types are very simple to fly compared to our aircraft, and childishly easy to take-off and land. (Werner Mölders)

Offline Jackal1

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Ice bubbles reveal biggest rise in CO2 for 800,000 years
« Reply #179 on: September 20, 2006, 10:56:05 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Angus
I for myself had heard that the oil companies funded global warming denialists. I didn't want to bring it up though, although some on these threads have chosen to throw the poop at government reasearches.
The best remains, it seems that the US is the host for global warming denialism. The rest of the world is aleady past that. Not all with doing, but with realizing.
However, Exxon will have to pay very much before one stops to be able to read the temp gauge :D


:D  Hehe. Have a little look see at what Kyoto is actual about. Their true goals etc. Money, money and the equalization of power and revenue for all. They should have just called theirself the Supreme Superpower Heros Of The New World Order. Got them some metal studded leather superhero costumes and an elevated throne, with an enormous bigscreen of the world in the background from which to make public broadcasts. A great majority of their dug up and paid off concrete postive data and proclamtions has been shot down and disproven or shown not to be proven. When cornered with researched and proven facts from other sources ,which they cannot deny, they have switched horses in the middle of the stream so many times by now that their saddles have to be weatherproofed. Maybe/maybe not...possibly/possibly not......could be/ could not be seems to be the norm from the scientific community that are in this corner. Money. One funded research reports and findings gets shot down or brought under too much scrutiny, it`s just another day and another dollar for the "Pay me to sayers".
At this point they have absolutely nothing. Nada. Zilch.
The weather patterns are changing and that`s about it. Woot. News flash....the earth and environment, weather, etc. has been in a constant state of change dating back to the earliest recorded history. I expect it will continue to do so in the future.
Democracy is two wolves deciding on what to eat. Freedom is a well armed sheep protesting the vote.
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