Author Topic: Ice bubbles reveal biggest rise in CO2 for 800,000 years  (Read 4865 times)

Offline Angus

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Ice bubbles reveal biggest rise in CO2 for 800,000 years
« Reply #105 on: September 09, 2006, 05:10:27 AM »
Lazs:
"exactly what is it that you think we should do? What would make you feel good about the whole situation?

What are the sacrafices you would want us to all make?"


That I can tell you.

SACRIFICES OF MANKIND, CHAPTER ONE :D

1. Try to realize there is a problem.
2. Try to analyze the magnitude of the problem (nobody has the accurate answer of how much, that includes me. Very much is work is basically put into the fight of whether there is a problem or not, which includes this thread :D)
3. Find a way to counter the problem. Since the problem consists of greenhouse gases being released out of their storage, it is a question of 2 things, a and b.
3a. Try to minimize the emissions. That  includes fuel saving and alternate energy, which is nowhere near it's limit.
3b. Try to increase the amount of i.e. charbon that gets tied up. That is an environmental and agricultural question.
4. Bonus one. Stop making a monster out of fighting a problem :D

I guess I will have to get more into detail later ;)
It was very interesting to carry out the flight trials at Rechlin with the Spitfire and the Hurricane. Both types are very simple to fly compared to our aircraft, and childishly easy to take-off and land. (Werner Mölders)

Offline Jackal1

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Ice bubbles reveal biggest rise in CO2 for 800,000 years
« Reply #106 on: September 09, 2006, 12:08:50 PM »
Scare of the Century

JASON LEE STEORTS
"The alarms and assertions about global warming have gone reprehensibly too far,”
says Steorts.

“Suddenly and unexpectedly,” Time announced in a recent issue, “the crisis is upon us. The climate is crashing, and global warming [what else?] is to blame.”
“We see a photograph of a polar bear, standing all by his lonesome at the water’s
edge, and are told that the poor fellow might drown because “polar ice caps are
melting faster than ever.” Later, we learn that “the journal Science published a
study suggesting that by the end of the century, the world could be locked in to an
eventual rise in sea levels of as much as 20 ft.”

”The policy implications of such reportage are clear, but in case you missed them,
Time connects the dots: “Curbing global warming may be an order of magnitude
harder than, say, eradicating smallpox or putting a man on the moon. But is it moral
not to try?”

“The answer is, yes, it may indeed be moral not to try. What is not moral is to
distort the truth for political ends—which is precisely what has been done with the
ice-caps story. Here’s what you haven’t read.”

 “The world has two major ice sheets, one covering most of Greenland and the
other covering most of Antarctica but the chances of the ice caps fully melting are
about as high as the chances of Times giving you an honest story on global
warming.”

“ University of Virginia climate scientist Patrick J. Michaels is direct: “What has
happened is that Antarctica has been gaining ice.” Michaels explains that there has
been a cooling trend over most of Antarctica for decades. “At the same time, one
tiny portion of the continent—the Antarctic Peninsula —has been warming, and its
ice has been melting. The peninsula constitutes only about 2 percent of Antarctica ’s total area, but almost every study of melting Antarctic ice you’ve
heard of focuses on it.” (Which I’ve been saying all along.)

Antarctica has gained 45 billion tons of ice per year between 1992 and 2003,
says Steorts, “enough to lower sea levels by roughly 0.12 millimeters annually.”
(Lower sea levels, not higher, which is also what I've been saying.)

 But those figures take us only to 2003. A study released earlier this year, says
Steorts, suggests that the Antarctic Ice Sheet has lost about 152 cubic kilometers
of ice per year during the past three years, equivalent to about 0.4 millimeters of
annual sea-level rise. “But three years do not make a trend,” says Steorts. This
kind of alarmism “is on the order of going to the beach at high tide, drawing a line
at the water’s edge, and fretting a few hours later that the oceans are drying up.”

And Greenland ? Some studies show that it’s losing a negligible amount of mass,
others show that it’s gaining a negligible amount of mass. Even if the losing-mass
proponents are correct, “Add all the numbers from Greenland and Antarctica up,”
says Steorts, “and you get a rather piddling total. In 2005, Jay Zwally of NASA
published a study in the Journal of Glaciology that looked at the ice-mass
changes for both Greenland and Antarctica from 1992 to 2002. He concluded that
the total ice loss was equivalent to a sea-level rise of just 0.05 millimeters per year.
At that rate, it would take the oceans a millennium to gain 5 centimeters, and a full
20,000 years to rise by a meter. To the hills, anyone?”

You don’t need to invoke man-made global warming to explain what’s going on,
says Steorts. “We have temperature records indicating that Greenland was as
warm as it is today during the first half of the 20th century. “If today’s temperatures
are casing Greenland ’s coastal ice to slide into the sea, it must have been positively
galloping there 80 years ago.

“Fred Singer of George Mason University points out that “we have historic
[temperature] records in Europe going back a thousand years. It was much
warmer then than today. Polar bears survived. The ice caps survived.”

“Time, Al Gore, the Democratic party, the EU, politically correct scientists, and
the entire green lobby want us to throw enormous sums of money [via the Kyoto
Treaty] at solutions that won’t work anyhow.

 Good plan, guys.”
Democracy is two wolves deciding on what to eat. Freedom is a well armed sheep protesting the vote.
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Offline Jackal1

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Ice bubbles reveal biggest rise in CO2 for 800,000 years
« Reply #107 on: September 09, 2006, 12:49:55 PM »
The Myth of Greenhouse Gases

Phil Brennan
Wednesday, Feb 23, 2005

“Listen up. This is very important.

“In fact, the global warmiacs couldn't be further from the truth. As I argued in my January 13 column, Let Eyes See and Ears Hear, and in my 1997 investigative report, "Global Warming or Globaloney," high levels of CO2 in the atmosphere are indeed a dire warning that something very unpleasant is about to befall our planet and those of us who reside here, but it has nothing to do with global warming.

“Precisely the opposite: It is both the harbinger and the cause of a coming new ice age.

“Now comes Robert W. Felix, who in his book "Not by Fire but by Ice" argues persuasively that it is not global warming but ocean warming that is pushing CO2 levels through the roof.

 â€śAccording to Felix, the oceans are warming as the result of widespread underwater volcanic activity, which he thoroughly documents. He adds that "We've forgotten that this isn't the first time our seas have warmed. Sea temperatures also shot upward 10Âş to 18ÂşF just prior to the last ice age. As the oceans warmed, evaporation increased. The excess moisture then fell to the ground as giant blizzards, giant storms and floods (Noah's Deluge type floods), and a new ice age began."

“And he warns, "The same thing is happening today. "Our seas, heated by underwater volcanism, are leading us directly into the next ice age ... and we don't even know it.
Democracy is two wolves deciding on what to eat. Freedom is a well armed sheep protesting the vote.
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Offline Jackal1

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Ice bubbles reveal biggest rise in CO2 for 800,000 years
« Reply #108 on: September 09, 2006, 12:50:31 PM »
The coming ice age
By John Silveira


As little as 30 years ago the talk wasn’t about global warming, it was about an imminent ice age. Is an ice age likely? Even possible? Consider this: There have been more than 20 glacial advances, or ice ages, in just the last two million years. And we know from geological evidence that each glaciation lasted anywhere from 20,000 to 100,000 years—no one knows why the disparity—separated by warm periods that last some 10,000 to 15,000 years. What we can be reasonably sure of is that we’re now in one of the warm periods, and this one is already 13,000 years old. Some scientists think it’s at an end and a new ice age is about to begin.

No one really knows what causes ice ages. Theories abound. They include perturbations in the earth’s orbit, changes in ocean currents, the earth periodically passing through galactic dust that obscures the sun, variations in the sun’s energy output, changes in continental positions, uplift of continental blocks, reduction of CO2 in the atmosphere, etc. Evidence or experiment may eventually resolve which of the theories wins out, or it may turn out that a combination of theories are true. It may even be that none of the current theories proves satisfactory and some entirely new theory ultimately explains their cause.

But what is pretty certain is how they take place. It was once common wisdom to believe that the advent of an ice age took place over centuries or even millennia, and that they ended the same way. It was thought that the changes were so slow that, if people were around to witness them, each generation would hardly notice any change. If the next glaciation were to come on slowly, and we recognized it as the beginning of an ice age, maybe there would be time for civilization to adjust: to begin food storage, to develop crop hybrids that will endure shorter growing seasons, to move populations, factories, and technology—the core of our civilization—into southern climates, etc.

But we now have evidence that ice ages come on with an abruptness that will catch us by total surprise. Physical evidence indicates that when the last ice age started, the British Isles went from a temperate climate to being completely covered with glaciers hundreds of feet thick in just 20 years.

Do scientists think it’ll happen that way again? Yes. And if the next ice age starts here’s how it may occur: At first we wouldn’t even realize it, so the first few years we’d feel we were just having one or two bad winters. But after a few years rivers will freeze all-year-round, snow from the previous years won’t completely melt, glaciers will begin to form, and some of what is currently now the world’s most fertile ground will become unfarmable.

Countries bordering on both sides of the Atlantic will change radically as a result of changes in the Gulf Stream, and Europe, which today is almost 20 degrees warmer than other parts of the world at the same latitude, will become as cold and dry as Siberia. The Sahara may again become forested while the Amazon basin becomes a desert. Florida may also become a desert, as it was in a previous ice age.

At the same time, if the climate changes enough to disturb the monsoon season that fuels agriculture from Africa to China, where over half the world’s six billion people now live, hundreds of millions will starve when the climate abruptly changes. There’s no way to prepare them for that.

Canadian and Russian wheat will fail completely. American agriculture, on which much of the world depends, will be scaled back by shorter growing seasons. Not only will we not have enough food for export, we won’t be able to grow enough to sustain even our own current population. And jobs? Factories will close, service businesses will disappear, stocked supermarkets will become a thing of the past. Get ready for your standard of living to drop like a rock while you and your kin go hungry.

How far will the ice fields extend? In North America they will most likely reach as far south as present day Chicago. But they may go further. And this isn’t going to be some picture postcard winter landscape. At the height of the last ice age, the ice fields covering much of North America were up to two miles thick. So, expect the great northern cities, such as New York, Boston, Detroit, Toronto, Montreal, etc., to be swept away before advancing glaciers. In the meantime, sea levels will drop and more of the continental shelves will be exposed. You’ll be able to walk from Siberia to Alaska, from California to the Channel Islands, from Britain to France, from Australia to New Guinea.

But when is this really all likely to happen? Because no one knows what causes ice ages, there’s no way to forecast when the next one will start, how bad it will be, or what effect the (allegedly man-made) global warming taking place today will have on it. We can’t tell whether it will be less severe than the last one, when the ice sheets only extended as far south as Wisconsin, or as bad as some of the glaciations of half a billion years ago when ice sheets formed all the way to the equator. Although this latter scenario is unlikely, no one can be sure. But if it does, kiss the human race good-bye.

What seems fairly certain is that we will go from the world as it is today to full-blown glaciation in less than 20 years, maybe in as little as four or five. And there is no way the United States can adjust to and survive a climate change this abrupt.

Can we stop it? We can’t even stop a single snow storm. Imagine trying to stop an ice age that’s going to go on for tens of thousands of years.
Democracy is two wolves deciding on what to eat. Freedom is a well armed sheep protesting the vote.
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Offline Angus

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Ice bubbles reveal biggest rise in CO2 for 800,000 years
« Reply #109 on: September 09, 2006, 01:31:29 PM »
So, make a snowman the danger and we are simply keeping things better than freeze over?

While the Earth has cycles, some of them violent, we never hit the Venus condition, which is the doomsday say.
That means roughly this:
Hot enough to release everything that is stored as frozen > accelerated heating > water on surface hits boiling point (Water IS a greenhouse gas as steam) > The devil can now comfortably live on the surface > All hell is loose.

Jackal, while you do indeed paste a lot, please explain to me with your own logics that an iceage is coming, and we're better off with the heat.

In my mind, the end of all intelligent life on the planet would rather be occuring when every dot hits the boiling point rather than when a good block is frozen while there is a good block being comfy.
It was very interesting to carry out the flight trials at Rechlin with the Spitfire and the Hurricane. Both types are very simple to fly compared to our aircraft, and childishly easy to take-off and land. (Werner Mölders)

Offline Elfie

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Ice bubbles reveal biggest rise in CO2 for 800,000 years
« Reply #110 on: September 09, 2006, 02:10:45 PM »
Scientists can't even agree on whether we are heading towards catastrophic global warming or headed towards an ice age. :lol

Quote
You don�t need to invoke man-made global warming to explain what�s going on,
says Steorts. �We have temperature records indicating that Greenland was as
warm as it is today during the first half of the 20th century. �If today�s temperatures
are casing Greenland �s coastal ice to slide into the sea, it must have been positively
galloping there 80 years ago.

�Fred Singer of George Mason University points out that �we have historic
[temperature] records in Europe going back a thousand years. It was much
warmer then than today. Polar bears survived. The ice caps survived.ďż˝


When scientists can agree, then I'll get worried. :)
Corkyjr on country jumping:
In the end you should be thankful for those players like us who switch to try and help keep things even because our willingness to do so, helps a more selfish, I want it my way player, get to fly his latewar uber ride.

Offline lukster

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Ice bubbles reveal biggest rise in CO2 for 800,000 years
« Reply #111 on: September 09, 2006, 03:31:48 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Angus
So, make a snowman the danger and we are simply keeping things better than freeze over?

While the Earth has cycles, some of them violent, we never hit the Venus condition, which is the doomsday say.
That means roughly this:
Hot enough to release everything that is stored as frozen > accelerated heating > water on surface hits boiling point (Water IS a greenhouse gas as steam) > The devil can now comfortably live on the surface > All hell is loose.

Jackal, while you do indeed paste a lot, please explain to me with your own logics that an iceage is coming, and we're better off with the heat.

In my mind, the end of all intelligent life on the planet would rather be occuring when every dot hits the boiling point rather than when a good block is frozen while there is a good block being comfy.


Jackal can post for himself but I thought what he posted was pretty clear. There is now increasing activity among the world's underwater volcanoes resulting in increasing sea temperatures which results in increasing evaporation leading to an ice age as believed to have happened many times in the past.

Increased Volcanic activity. Wouldn't that account for increasing co2 levels?

Offline Jackal1

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Ice bubbles reveal biggest rise in CO2 for 800,000 years
« Reply #112 on: September 09, 2006, 03:42:38 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Angus

That means roughly this:
Hot enough to release everything that is stored as frozen > accelerated heating > water on surface hits boiling point (Water IS a greenhouse gas as steam) > The devil can now comfortably live on the surface > All hell is loose.
 


So, are you suggesting this will happen?
I guess by the same token I could suggest that in the event of a supervolcanoe eruption or a nuclear disaster or war things would get sort of like a giant ice rink. Frosty could now visit all those places that he was never able to before comfortably. All icebox is loose. Am I suggesting that? Nope, but just as feasable.

Quote
Jackal, while you do indeed paste a lot


Yep. This way Skuzz doesn`t have to come in and post an "FYI..this site contains....XXXXX". Feel free to skip over any cut and pastes of mine you find offensive.

Quote
please explain to me with your own logics that an iceage is coming,


It would be pretty illogical for me to attempt that. It would, on the same theme, be pretty illogical for me to assume the position that a global meltdown/warming is taking place or in our future. The main reason is absolutely nobody knows or agrees on either subject.
I suppose you do know that some scientists are saying that your ice melting is not being caused by global warming, but instead by undersea, volcanic activity. They are also saying that, if this is so, global warming will never happen, but instead, parts of the earth that now have moderate temps will become frozen areas due to the changes that will take effect in ocean currents. Do I buy into this? Nope? Why? Because, just like the global warming for lunch bunch, they are speculating without sufficient knowledge. In other words....guessing and speculating on what could happen.
One thing I can count on, and know as fact, is none of them can predict mother nature or  unforseen, unpredictable changes or occurences in mother earth and our environment. Can`t be done.
I`ve seen many doomsday theories come down the pike. Some have captured a small audience as believers......for a while. Then the next theory takes hold and it`s OMG we`re all going to die time again.
None of them know, none of them agree, all are speculative, if not pipe dreams of a nightmarish nature.




Quote
and we're better off with the heat


We are? We have a choice now? :)

Quote
In my mind, the end of all intelligent life on the planet would rather be occuring when every dot hits the boiling point rather than when a good block is frozen while there is a good block being comfy


Ummmmmmmm..........errrrrrrrr rrrr............OK......I guess.
So......are we predicting the total end to intelligent life now or what?
« Last Edit: September 09, 2006, 03:45:03 PM by Jackal1 »
Democracy is two wolves deciding on what to eat. Freedom is a well armed sheep protesting the vote.
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Offline lazs2

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Ice bubbles reveal biggest rise in CO2 for 800,000 years
« Reply #113 on: September 10, 2006, 10:25:19 AM »
What sacrafices would you handwringers want me to make in order to stop the sun from heating and cooling or the under ocean volcanoes from heating up the ocean?

angus... I asked you what we should do and you gave no specifics at all.

Should we ban all tourist and non essential flights?  if not..... why not?   How bout drive only for emergencies and be given ration cards?

How bout.... we give lots more of our money to the government for them to study the problem?  

lazs

Offline Mr Nice

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Re: Ice bubbles reveal biggest rise in CO2 for 800,000 years
« Reply #114 on: September 10, 2006, 10:37:59 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by xrtoronto
The rapid rise in greenhouse gases over the past century is unprecedented in at least 800,000 years, according to a study of the oldest Antarctic ice core which highlights the reality of climate change.

Air bubbles trapped in ice for hundreds of thousands of years have revealed that humans are changing the composition of the atmosphere in a manner that has no known natural parallel.




lol. Does anybody really read this and not get the horse crap that is being peddled here?

Yes, climate change is a reality......otherwise we'd still have an ice age.

And, how exactly do the aire bubbles trapped in ice *reveal* that HUMANS are the cause of the change? Its a joke, really.

Offline Holden McGroin

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Ice bubbles reveal biggest rise in CO2 for 800,000 years
« Reply #115 on: September 10, 2006, 02:44:38 PM »
source

Quote
“Rather than changes in 20th century climate being responsible for their demise, glaciers on Kilimanjaro appear to be remnants of a past climate that was once able to sustain them. Hastenrath [2001, 2006] suggests an increase in net shortwave radiation, accompanied by a decrease in cloudiness and precipitation, initiated the retreat of the glaciers during the last two decades of the 19th century. This is supported by a recent finding that a higher frequency of climatically significant Indian Ocean Zonal Mode events in the 19th century (1820–1880) may have provided a mechanism to contribute to a wetter climate in East Africa, and thus stable glaciers [Mölg et al., 2006]. To fully understand what climatic conditions enabled glaciers to accumulate and grow prior to the onset of modern glacier recession on Kilimanjaro, more effort to reconstruct 19th century climate is necessary.”
Holden McGroin LLC makes every effort to provide accurate and complete information. Since humor, irony, and keen insight may be foreign to some readers, no warranty, expressed or implied is offered. Re-writing this disclaimer cost me big bucks at the lawyer’s office!

Offline Angus

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Ice bubbles reveal biggest rise in CO2 for 800,000 years
« Reply #116 on: September 13, 2006, 08:32:43 AM »
Here is a little sidenote, since many threads have included statements that the globe is not warming at all, while this one hasn't so much.
There is the melting for which you need warming. Glaciers again, yes.
Not only photos and measurements have been used for the measure (this has been debated on the threads,- some have claimed that the glaciers are piling up at the same rate).
There is the possibility of measuring the amount of how much the sea is being "watered out" in terms of the mineral balance - mostly salt.
It supports nicely that indeed the world glaciers and surface ice, notably on the northern hemisphere are indeed melting and very much so.

This method had not crossed my mind yet, but it's quite simple!
It was very interesting to carry out the flight trials at Rechlin with the Spitfire and the Hurricane. Both types are very simple to fly compared to our aircraft, and childishly easy to take-off and land. (Werner Mölders)

Offline lazs2

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Ice bubbles reveal biggest rise in CO2 for 800,000 years
« Reply #117 on: September 13, 2006, 08:40:08 AM »
What exactly do you want us to do and how much will it help change a natural cycle?

How can we stop the volcanoes from heating up the ocean?  Won't melting glaciers help?

lazs

Offline Angus

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Ice bubbles reveal biggest rise in CO2 for 800,000 years
« Reply #118 on: September 13, 2006, 09:18:54 AM »
What exactly happens if I shoot you somewhere in the torso with a .22 magnum from 30 yards???

I don't know, but probably somewhere between painful and lethal.

And...Im afraid it's not any hidden volcanoes melting the polar caps.....
It was very interesting to carry out the flight trials at Rechlin with the Spitfire and the Hurricane. Both types are very simple to fly compared to our aircraft, and childishly easy to take-off and land. (Werner Mölders)

Offline Jackal1

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Ice bubbles reveal biggest rise in CO2 for 800,000 years
« Reply #119 on: September 13, 2006, 09:41:08 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Angus
What exactly happens if I shoot you somewhere in the torso with a .22 magnum from 30 yards???
.


What exactly happens if the atmosphere, climate and environment are tampered with in some unnatural way?

Quote
And...Im afraid it's not any hidden volcanoes melting the polar caps....


You base this assumption on what? You have some info that you are not letting the theorists in on? They certainly can`t agree on what or IF anything unnatural is happening.
Usualy the first step in fixing anything is to determine exactly what is wrong and why. This hasn`t been done.
Before that you need to know if there really is something wrong . This hasn`t been done either.
Democracy is two wolves deciding on what to eat. Freedom is a well armed sheep protesting the vote.
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