Author Topic: iran fighter  (Read 2550 times)

Offline Viking

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« Reply #120 on: September 09, 2006, 04:19:48 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by lukster
My addition:

"That list is ludicrous at best.


How can you have freedom of the press without freedom of speech? Sweden for example is ranked #12 on that list yet jails people for religious or "hate speech".

http://www.worldmagblog.com/blog/archives/007645.html "


They don’t jail people for religious or “hate speech”. You can say what you want. Incite a riot or violence on the other hand is something very different.

Offline lukster

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« Reply #121 on: September 09, 2006, 04:19:54 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Viking
Yes.


The press is but not citizens? Please prove it.

Offline lukster

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« Reply #122 on: September 09, 2006, 04:20:45 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Viking
They don’t jail people for religious or “hate speech”. You can say what you want. Incite a riot or violence on the other hand is something very different.


Did you not read the link I posted? perhaps you think it is a lie?

Offline Nilsen

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« Reply #123 on: September 09, 2006, 04:24:01 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by lukster
You have only to read the link I posted where it is stated that a preacher was jailed for 30 days in Sweden for saying homosexuality is wrong.

You can't have true freedom of the press without freedom of speech which is why that list is meaningless.


Well.. still dont agree with you on that.

Offline lukster

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« Reply #124 on: September 09, 2006, 04:25:37 PM »
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Originally posted by Nilsen
Well.. still dont agree with you on that.


At least you have that right. Just be glad I'm not homosexual and that you don't live in Sweden. ;)

Offline Viking

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« Reply #125 on: September 09, 2006, 04:26:16 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by lukster
The press is but not citizens? Please prove it.


That's simple. Pastor Åke Green was acquitted of the charges by the Swedish Supreme Court.

You simply don't have a case (pun intended) ;)


http://www.thelocal.se/article.php?ID=2590&date=20051129

Offline Nilsen

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« Reply #126 on: September 09, 2006, 04:28:50 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by lukster
At least you have that right. Just be glad I'm not homosexual and that you don't live in Sweden. ;)


Im glad for those 2 things no matter what :D

Offline lukster

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« Reply #127 on: September 09, 2006, 04:29:25 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Viking
That's simple. Pastor Åke Green was acquitted of the charges by the Swedish Supreme Court.

You simply don't have a case (pun intended) ;)


http://www.thelocal.se/article.php?ID=2590&date=20051129


He was convicted but the lower court's ruling was overturned. He still did jail time I believe. i'll look it up.

Fact remains, Sweden does have anti-hate speech laws on the books.

Offline lukster

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« Reply #128 on: September 09, 2006, 04:36:57 PM »
Looks like the Swedish Supreme Court bowed to the European court.

"Åke Green (born 3 June, 1941) is a Pentecostal Christian pastor who was sentenced to one month in prison under Sweden's law against hate speech. On February 11, 2005 an appeals court, Göta hovrätt, overturned the decision and acquitted Åke Green. On March 9, the Prosecutor-General appealed this decision to the Supreme Court, which on November 29 also acquitted him. In their opinion, while Åke Green had violated Swedish law as it currently stands, a conviction would most likely be overturned by the European Court of Human Rights, based on their previous rulings regarding Article 9 of the European Convention on Human Rights.[1]"

http://www.answers.com/topic/ke-green

So, Sweden was listed at #12 and the US was far below. Yet a preacher cannot denounce homosexuality in Sweden but protesters can heckle those attending a soldier's funeral in the US because they fight for homosexuals.

I'm just about certain that the press would not be "free" to publish an article on the spread of aids being blamed on homsexuals. Freedom of the press my ass.

Offline Nilsen

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« Reply #129 on: September 09, 2006, 04:42:14 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by lukster

I'm just about certain that the press would not be "free" to publish an article on the spread of aids being blamed on homsexuals. Freedom of the press my ass.


Then im just about sertain that you would be wrong. The paper would get bad press and they would be drawn into plenty of debates and uproar but the government would stay out of it.

Same thing happended with the christian paper here that printed the Muhammed drawings. They were at no point told to do anything about it by the government, but they lost readers and their pubisher in the end came with an apology for not thinking but he never said he was sorry for standing his ground on the right to publish what he wanted.

Offline lukster

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« Reply #130 on: September 09, 2006, 04:51:19 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Nilsen
Then im just about sertain that you would be wrong.  


The laws on the books say you're wrong.

We have no laws in the US against "hate speech". While some here might go along with it, most see that as an attempt at thought control and a violation of our most basic human rights.

I stand by my claim that true freedom of the press is derived from freedom of speech.

Offline Viking

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« Reply #131 on: September 09, 2006, 04:56:25 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by lukster
Looks like the Swedish Supreme Court bowed to the European court.

"Åke Green (born 3 June, 1941) is a Pentecostal Christian pastor who was sentenced to one month in prison under Sweden's law against hate speech. On February 11, 2005 an appeals court, Göta hovrätt, overturned the decision and acquitted Åke Green. On March 9, the Prosecutor-General appealed this decision to the Supreme Court, which on November 29 also acquitted him. In their opinion, while Åke Green had violated Swedish law as it currently stands, a conviction would most likely be overturned by the European Court of Human Rights, based on their previous rulings regarding Article 9 of the European Convention on Human Rights.[1]"

http://www.answers.com/topic/ke-green

So, Sweden was listed at #12 and the US was far below. Yet a preacher cannot denounce homosexuality in Sweden but protesters can heckle those attending a soldier's funeral in the US because they fight for homosexuals.

I'm just about certain that the press would not be "free" to publish an article on the spread of aids being blamed on homsexuals. Freedom of the press my ass.



A Swede answered your question on a blog:

“I can easily imagine that to Solon claim that "gays are cancer in the body of society" is "thoughtful. It is actually precisely the same metaphor that nazis used. And what is the cure of cancer? Removal by knife. Germans in 1930's understood it and so will those who seek reasoning for violence towards gays.

Once again there is need to get some facts straightened out even though I know that evangelicals are not friend of truth in no way or form. Ake Green was never indicted for preaching because NOBODY HEARD HIS SERMON. His congregation cosists of 50 Pentecostals out of which 10 were present when the sermon was given. Åke Green had invited media (radio, TV, newspapers) to attend and when nobody came he spread the sermon in writing to several newspapers, internet sites etc.
So the bogey man of Swedish Police arresting Green after sermon in church is a lie.

Sweden does not one constitution. It has four set of laws that are considered to be "constitutional law" which means that they can be altered only if two consecutive parliaments (there has to be general election in between) approve them by 3/4ths of a majority. Law that regulates freedom of speech and expression are those and so is the hate crimes law because it is a law that to some extent curtails it.

The hate speech law is first and foremost aimed against people who advocate for violence against any group of people (regardless of reasoning, Bible, Mein Kampf, Quran, personal hatred). Basically the prosecutor did what he had to do because there wasn't a case before this that would have set boundaries for religious hate speech. Because Green only advovcated for violence by using metaphors and using Bible quotes in typical evengelicallly selective fashion, he was freed.

The case actually helped gays in Sweden and it most certaily did not help anti-gay cause. It showed what kind of fringe groups opposed gay rights and Åke Green was usually presented together with neonazi leaders who used same kind of language.”


So you see: You can say what you want about homosexuals as long as you don’t incite violence against them. Pastor Åke Green incited violence against gays, but got away with it just like the neo-Nazis do.

Of course this has nothing to do with freedom of the press. It’s just a straw man argument because you can’t substantiate your claim that the freedom of the press ranking list is “ludicrous at best”.

Offline Nilsen

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« Reply #132 on: September 09, 2006, 04:57:21 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by lukster
The laws on the books say you're wrong.

We have no laws in the US against "hate speech". While some here might go along with it, most see that as an attempt at thought control and a violation of our most basic human rights.

I stand by my claim that true freedom of the press is derived from freedom of speech.







That is your prerogative.

Im off to bed. Always a pleasure discussing with you as you can keep yer cool in any discussion ive had with you.


gn :)

Offline lukster

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« Reply #133 on: September 09, 2006, 05:06:36 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Nilsen
That is your prerogative.

Im off to bed. Always a pleasure discussing with you as you can keep yer cool in any discussion ive had with you.


gn :)


Don't let the bed bugs bite. ;)

Offline Nilsen

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« Reply #134 on: September 09, 2006, 05:07:35 PM »
bugs??... were??? :confused: :huh :eek: