How much longer????

[Gunslinger]

Islam is the diseased religion of perpetual outrage.

[detch01]

Originally posted by Seagoon
So I think for us it'll be resist, appease, capitulate. That has historically been the course followed by the enemies of Islam since the Meccan tribes incidently.

Seagoon. I think you're being overly pessimistic about the conflict with islam. I suspect that islam will make some significant gains if they don't do something stupid (i.e. actually pull of a massively destructive strike somewhere in the west) before we seriously get into it with them. But I don't for a minute see islam actually coming out on top when all is said and done.  
I do think that things are going to get worse before we engage in any meaningful way but once we do engage, islam is on the short road to being a footnote in world history and they will find it a quick trip. They make the mistake of assuming that the tolerance and appeasement they get from us now is weakness. It isn't. It is a self-imposed illusion that we have for the moment but it won't last. And once that illusion is destroyed, and islam will certainly destroy it, they'll find in us an enemy with the means and the will to grind them into pulp with exquisite thoroughness.
To those who insist on maintaining a warm and rosy appreciation of this 'religion', I highly recommend reading a translation of the kuran, a biography of mohhamed, and talking to someone devoutely of that faith about this faith and the intended fate of those who are not believers in it.  It will be educational.


asw

[Neubob]

The dreariest aspect of human nature, as far as I've seen, is perfectly illustrated by the fact that the world's fastest-growing religion is nothing more than a very effective rallying cry for the release of pent-up aggression--both on a personal scale as well as on a social one.

This thing will come to a head eventually, and it will happen in a way that history has not yet foreshadowed. Modern weapons can alter the world in minutes. If Islam doesn't enlighten soon, and significantly, god will have a hell of a job sorting through all the newly-liberated souls.

On a historical note, I'd like to say that religions going through periods of radicalism is nothing new. Christianity did a fair job of it as well, the difference is, that we're alive now, and we're seeing this now, and none of us has much perspective on what was happening centuries ago, when a whole different slew of whackos were killing in the name of god. There is fear and there is a willingness to tolerate radical Islam today. It comes from a lack of understanding of how far they will take things, from tolerance--which is becoming more and more popular in Western Society as of late--and most of all, from a strong interest in maintaining a status quo which very much favors our way of life.

But the Muslims, today, are planting the seeds of their own demise. With every act of hatred, intolerance and over-zealous insanity, they are planting an innate understanding of their true nature in generations to come. Forget the history and the text-books. The true nature of which I speak is the opposite of all this 'religion of peace' nonesense. It is an indoctrination of inflexability. It is an indoctrination of obsessive fixation. It is an indoctrination of abuse, and if this persists, and does not end with a rash of fusion reactions here and abroad, the backlash will come.

[Vudak]

The problem is, how will we ever stop Islam without being willing to stoop to its level, or below?

In my opinion, it would take a massive, Hitlerite (or Roman *late republic/early Principate) style effort to sort things out...  And the civilized world just isn't "down" to do that any more.

And of course, it's praiseworthy that the world isn't.  But good morals won't save us in this situation, any more then smiling will save you from a charging elephant.

This is a very sad course of events.  Ever since I could read I've been handed books like Maus, The Diary of Ann Frank, Night, etc., and have come to appreciate that the Holocaust was a horrible thing...  But every year since 9/11 I'm drifting more and more to the opinion that the "Final Solution" might be the only solution to the problem at hand today.

I mean, don't get me wrong...  If the Islamic world was fine with just saying "live and let live" - that'd be GREAT, and fine by me! But, unfortunately, they don't seem to be...  And I don't see this changing.

[MrRiplEy[H]]

Well actually Islam as a religion isn't any worse than christianism if you look at the behavioural patterns - they're just a couple centuries late at development.

Christians conquered and rampaged whole continents in the name of religion in the dark ages. Problem is we evolved they didn't.

[AKH]

Originally posted by Seagoon
Hi Toad,

 

I admire your confidence in this, I really do, but I just don't think its going to happen, especially in Europe.

Historically, Europe today parallels Rome at the time of the Barbarian conquests in many respects. Both were/are decadent, weak, and forced to allow their historic enemies to settle within her borders both for political reasons and in order to make up a shortage of manpower. At present Muslims continue to emmigrate into Europe at an increasing rate, and those that already live there are outbreeding native Europeans (who aren't even replacing themselves) at an alarming rate. In fact, to conquer Europe in a century, they don't need to do anything at all other than continue to move there and have large families. Smaller countries like Holland are already being overwhelmed, and many areas of European cities are effectively unpoliceable and increasingly governed by Islamic law. They are not assimilating into European culture, and in terms of religion and philosophy Europe really has nothing to oppose Islam with - at least nothing as compelling having by and large abandoned the Christian faith over a century ago and embraced instead philosophies of meaninglessness and loss of hope like existentialism, materialism, and outright nihilism.  

Europe is not going to confront Islam any more than Rome near the end was likely to try to pick a fight with the Barbarian tribes, and with each passing year they are weaker while their likely future rulers are stronger. The strategy at present is akin to trying to survive without making the Bears living in your house angry. Hopefully if I keep feeding them and being nice to them and pretending I don't see when they rip an arm off of a family member, they won't eat me. The problem is, that like real bears would, they are simply becoming bolder and less scared of taking over the house.

So, it comes down to America, and I don't think that anything short of Nuke will embolden us to really get serious either. In some senses what the intel guys are reported to have said after 9/11 is true - "They didn't kill enough people" and we've been too successfull in stopping their further attempts to do so.

This is a war that is going to be won not by the side with more guns and tanks and planes, this is a war that will be won by the side that perseveres in the conflict for longer, and we are dealing with an ideology that has persevered in the violent pursuit of their ultimate goals for 14 centuries. By comparison, can we even keep this up for a decade? I doubt it.

So I think for us it'll be resist, appease, capitulate. That has historically been the course followed by the enemies of Islam since the Meccan tribes incidently.

I dunno, I should probably look on the bright side, I like Khebabs and Gyros, we both dislike atheism in academics, and Burkas certainly will help with our Canadians on vacation in Daytona wearing Speedos and "does this make me look fat?" problems.

[AKH]

Originally posted by bj229r
Europe would be afraid to confront those obnoxious guys on the bicycles who solicit for the Mormon church

Actually, we usually politely advise them to p*ss off back to America, where they belong.

[Neubob]

Originally posted by Vudak
The problem is, how will we ever stop Islam without being willing to stoop to its level, or below?

We won't... In fact, it doesn't appear as if we're willing to do anything besides apologize for insulting speeches and pretend to lend helping hands to their poor, backward way of life.

This Pope has empowered the nutjobs like few before him with his apologies. If only he'd gotten up the next day and repeated those same words, only this time, waving his fist in the air, there would have been a molecule of progress.

No matter. The peace-loving muslims have yet to teach us a thing or two about anger.

Originally posted by AKH
Actually, we usually politely advise them to p*ss off back to America, where they belong.

Wonderful. If only you had the nads to apply this philosophy to the dangerous groups, not just the annoying ones. I suppose 'piss off back to Iran' doesn't quite have the same ring to it.

[AKH]

Oh yeah, like Europe is teeming with Iranian immigrants.  But what the hell, why let the facts (which you are obviously completely unaware off) get in your way?

[lukster]

Originally posted by AKH
Oh yeah, like Europe is teeming with Iranian immigrants.  But what the hell, why let the facts (which you are obviously completely unaware off) get in your way?

Hi Hoopy,

Iranian or not it seems that Britian is having some difficulty with Iranian influence.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/4424118.stm

"Perhaps surprisingly, given that Britain's Muslim community is mostly from Islam's majority Sunni sect and South Asian, much of the early inspiration for people to follow a more political Islam came from the Shia revolution in Iran."

[Neubob]

Originally posted by AKH
Oh yeah, like Europe is teeming with Iranian immigrants.  But what the hell, why let the facts (which you are obviously completely unaware off) get in your way?

In trying to avoid referencing an entire region, I used Iran as a random example of a Muslim country. You could, I suppose, ask the Muslims, politely, of course, 'to go piss off back to the middle east'.

Or are the Mormons outnumbering them, too?

[Toad]

Well, it's like this, see.

The Mormons are all about converting you by talking you into joining a religion where making lots of babies is a priority.

The Muslims, on the other hane, are all about converting you to their religion of peace or....killing you if you won't convert.

As you can see, the first premise is simply intolerable and those Mormons MUST be told to piss off back to Utah.

OTOH, the Muslims must be understood and we must praise their religion as a peaceful one. We must take care not to offend in any way.

[Seagoon]

Hello Mr. Ripley,

Originally posted by MrRiplEy[H]
Well actually Islam as a religion isn't any worse than christianism if you look at the behavioural patterns - they're just a couple centuries late at development.

Christians conquered and rampaged whole continents in the name of religion in the dark ages. Problem is we evolved they didn't.

Actually, they didn't. While there was considerable rampaging going on during the dark ages, very little of it was in the name of Christianity. For instance, the premier sack and pillagers of the time, the Vikings, were believers in the Norse Gods throughout that period and they sacked and pillaged for fun and profit. When they were finally Christianized by missionaries, their raiding activities ground to a halt.

The original conversion of Europe to Christianity was not accomplished by the sword or by armies, it was accomplished by individuals like Patrick. Patrick was a Briton taken as child to be a slave in Ireland, who escaped but felt a call to return there and preach the gospel, and without arms or coercion and with only his voice, the gospel, and the Paraclete in his arsenal was used in the conversion of the nation.  That kind of story was repeated throughout Europe as men like Augustine, Columba, and Boniface, went unarmed and often alone into the midst of pagan nations preaching the gospel and were eventually granted success, and that often at the same time that Islam was being spread by the Sword in the Middle East.

The difference between the two religions really was that one was spread by preaching and the other by the sword. For centuries Muslims have not been ashamed of that, in fact most Muslim histories proudly proclaim that it was Allah who gave them victory over their enemies. You see to Muslims, Christianity and its methods and message are weak. In personal witnessing to Muslims, I have been told outright that the message of a Savior who dies a humiliating death on the cross for the sins of others is weak and dishonorable. It is far better, I was once told by a Yemeni Taxi cab driver, to believe in Muhammad than Jesus, because only Muhammad was a great and strong fighter who led his armies to victory.

The message of Christianity, though is not victory through strength and self-reliance, but what the world would call victory through weakness and total dependence on God for salvation:

"For since, in the wisdom of God, the world through wisdom did not know God, it pleased God through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe. For Jews request a sign, and Greeks seek after wisdom; but we preach Christ crucified, to the Jews a stumbling block and to the Greeks foolishness, but to those who are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men, and the weakness of God is stronger than men. For you see your calling, brethren, that not many wise according to the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called. But God has chosen the foolish things of the world to put to shame the wise, and God has chosen the weak things of the world to put to shame the things which are mighty; and the base things of the world and the things which are despised God has chosen, and the things which are not, to bring to nothing the things that are" (1 Cor. 1:21-28)

[AKH]

Originally posted by lukster
Hi Hoopy,

Iranian or not it seems that Britian is having some difficulty with Iranian influence.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/4424118.stm

"Perhaps surprisingly, given that Britain's Muslim community is mostly from Islam's majority Sunni sect and South Asian, much of the early inspiration for people to follow a more political Islam came from the Shia revolution in Iran."

Hey Iron :-)  What's up, can't you get any decent political arguments on the WoW boards?

The extremists are a minority group within a minorty group.

[AKH]

Originally posted by Neubob
Or are the Mormons outnumbering them, too?

I misread this and you replied before I noticed and edited.  Please disregard.