Sweden boots its socialist government

[lasersailor184]

Originally posted by Maniac
Robin In Da Hood!

Robin Hood is one of the worst fables out there.  Think about it.  Robin Hood steals from evil rich men to give to the poor people who they oppressed.  But the story gets warped and warped until it becomes Robin stealing from the rich and giving to the poor.  No mention of evilness or morality.  So most people now think it is OK to steal money from the Rich to give to the poor.

The way to deal with kids whose first real read was Ayn Rand is to ignore them, let them feel superior, and let them learn for themselves that other people provide the only framework in which that kid can succeed.

I went into reading Atlas Shrugged as a Radical Libertarian.  I came out realizing that Radical Objectivist described me better.

But go ahead and feel that you do not need to address what I have said.  If it makes you feel better at night, even though I am right in every single thing I have said so far.

You did perhaps not "steal" from your fellow citizens, but you did "steal" from everyone else that pays insurance, unless you have payed over 250.000 USD to the insurance company already. Cant compare car insurance to this in any way at all.

Insurance has nothing to do with stealing.  Insurance is solely about gambling.  

For example, lets say you pay 1 grand a year.  Most any real operation would cost a lot more.  I am willing to gamble 1 thousand dollars a year that eventually I'm going to get really sick and the insurance company would have to pay a lot of money to make me better.

The insurance company is gambling that you do not get sick.  And when you analyze the amount of people who do not actually get sick but pay anyway, you realize this is a good bet.  For example, let's say that 1,000 people are paying 1,000 dollars a year.  25 people will get sick or seriously injured, and cost the insurance company roughly 500,000 (total all together).  The insurance company has just pocketed 500,000 dollars.  It's a crude example, but it shows how it works.

[Nilsen]

Originally posted by lasersailor184

Insurance has nothing to do with stealing.  Insurance is solely about gambling.  

For example, lets say you pay 1 grand a year.  Most any real operation would cost a lot more.  I am willing to gamble 1 thousand dollars a year that eventually I'm going to get really sick and the insurance company would have to pay a lot of money to make me better.

The insurance company is gambling that you do not get sick.  And when you analyze the amount of people who do not actually get sick but pay anyway, you realize this is a good bet.  For example, let's say that 1,000 people are paying 1,000 dollars a year.  25 people will get sick or seriously injured, and cost the insurance company roughly 500,000 (total all together).  The insurance company has just pocketed 500,000 dollars.  It's a crude example, but it shows how it works.

Id rather pay the govenment to give me the healtcare i need than some private investors. Whenever private companies are in the mix alot of money goes into someones pocket and not to what its supposed to. Thats just fine for any other business, but not when it comes to a basic human right such as healthcare. I too pay my insurance for everything else and it is a gamble ofcourse... and one i hope i never "win". Here we can choose any public hospital or private clinic we want when we get sick and the government picks up the tab. Its not like you are sent to the place they choose.

[lasersailor184]

But it's still a risk the government has to take for the same reason.  

You still are gambling against the government that you'll get sick instead of gambling against someone taking a risk that you won't get sick.


The difference is that you do not have to buy health insurance from a private company if you do not want to.  While you have to pay your socialized government under threat of penalty for not paying.


Which would you rather do?  Choose whether or not you want to gamble against insurance?  Or be forced to gamble against insurance by your oppressive government?

[Nashwan]

Personally I'd rather the system that operates in most of Europe. We pay the government, they provide healthcare for everybody.

The system in the US is you pay the government a bit more for healthcare than we do in Europe, but they don't provide you with healthcare, so you pay again to a private insurance company.

Seems to me most of Europe is getting a much better deal, in that the public healthcare system costs less, and provides coverage to everyone, whereas yours costs more, and provides coverage to only a small proportion of the population.

[Nilsen]

Originally posted by lasersailor184
But it's still a risk the government has to take for the same reason.  

You still are gambling against the government that you'll get sick instead of gambling against someone taking a risk that you won't get sick.


The difference is that you do not have to buy health insurance from a private company if you do not want to.  While you have to pay your socialized government under threat of penalty for not paying.


Which would you rather do?  Choose whether or not you want to gamble against insurance?  Or be forced to gamble against insurance by your oppressive government?

Easy choise.. I let the the government do it. They dont get any profit, and everything they get go back to the population in one form or another. Healthcare is not something I want to "gamble" with. It shal be there for those who need it.

Alot of things the government do can go out to the private sector.. no doubt about it. Health care is one of the few things that never must fall in the hands of greedy corporations that are out to get as much $$$$ as possible.

[Elfie]

If socialized medicare is so God awful, why do you think Finnish NHL sports superstars who live in Canada/US choose to fly across the atlantic for surgery here? I mean, they have literally millions of dollars of money but still seem to choose the cheap, inferior medicare for their body which is their tool for earning millions.

Weird innit? To me, only conclusion is that either we have a superior quality of surgeons here - or even the NHL millionaires can't really afford to pay for your healthcare system.

Another possibility is they choose to go have the surgery done for free instead of having to pay for it?

[mora]

Originally posted by lazs2
a few years back I had a 250,000 dollar operation by the best specialists in the world and it didn't cost me a cent... my insurance paid for it.

I did not have to steal a penny from my fellow citizens to pay for it.    Does that make me an anarchist?

When I go on medicare I will have paid into the "insurance" plan of medicare for many years...

Do you socialists think that someone else should pay for your car insurance or life insurance too?

We are talking insurance here.

lazs

Must have been quite an operation for that price. I wonder how much that operation would have cost in non-regulated market economy enviroment.

[weaselsan]

Originally posted by AKH
By the people, for the people.

From the productive people.

[Gryffin]

Originally posted by Gh0stFT
what a sad day for sweden, a country who in 2006 still is
in the top ten of 2006 Quality of Life Index, from now on it can only decrease.

Wow, in the top twenty odd countries only one didn't get a perfect score in the "Freedom" category ... the US. Go big brother!

[Vulcan]

Originally posted by lasersailor184
All those things you went through are really expensive.  But the real question is not "How much did you pay?"  But, "Who paid for your medical treatment?"  It seems free to you, and great.  But somewhere in your country is an honest hard-working man (or woman) who has had their money STOLEN from them in order to pay for your luxuries.

Well, I'm on the top tier of income tax here. Meaning I pay a significant amount of money each year. I'd love to pay less tax, we all would, and sure there is some silly stuff goes on occasionally with our tax money. But theres some really nice benefits, like knowing that we're looking after people in this country (sure theres some bums, but they make the lifestyle choice). I can honestly not donate money to charities because I feel my tax dollars do enough work and not feel the slightest bit of guilt.

Its also worth noting my company pays for healthcare insurance for me, however I've never needed to use it.  I do suffer from mild asthma, but my medicine is provided free by the government health system (they have this bizarre idea that if they help people stay well it keeps medical costs down, and people productivie).

Lasersailor, how do you feel about your socialist government taking YOUR tax dollars to subsidize unprofitable industries in the US such as forestry, farming and steel?

[lasersailor184]

The subsidizing of any industry goes against the ideals of a free and capitilistic society.  Basically, that sector of the industry, or the way that sector produces it's products is either dying or out dated.  By subsidizing it, you are mantaining it just above a failing state.

If you let it fail, a couple of things would happen.  First is that existing steel would become expensive, this would drive research.  Then someone could design a newer, more efficient way of producing steel, crops, forestry...  Or someone could invent or discover a replacement for all of the previous which would match or better the quality at the same or less cost.


Of course, that is all contingent on the free market idea.

Easy choise.. I let the the government do it. They dont get any profit, and everything they get go back to the population in one form or another. Healthcare is not something I want to "gamble" with. It shal be there for those who need it.

Most every single thing that has gone wrong any where in the world in the past 1000 years has been because of governments, yet you still trust yours to do anything?


Anyway, you are gambling on healthcare.  Your government is gambling with your money for themselves.  Without your choice to do so.

[Nilsen]

Yes I trust my government. What has happened elsewere does not have any influence on my government. You cant get away with everything in such a small transparent nation as ours and whenever they try to go against the majority of the population they get thrown out peacefully by the oposition... it has happened.

The thought of beeing as distrusful of the elected government as many others are is just as alien to me as our trust in the system we have is alien to you.

[Vulcan]

Originally posted by lasersailor184
Most every single thing that has gone wrong any where in the world in the past 1000 years has been because of governments, yet you still trust yours to do anything?

Anyway, you are gambling on healthcare.  Your government is gambling with your money for themselves.  Without your choice to do so.

I fail to see how my government is gambling with my money (which incidentally, spends significantly less per capita on public healthcare than YOUR government whilst providing a superior free healthcare system).

Just to re-iterate the facts:
 - NZ spends less per capita on public healthcare than the US
 - NZ's public healthcare system while not perfect is fairly good and 99% of the time does a damn good job (can you say that about the US public healthcare system?)

What do they do to you in those private hospitals over there? Brainwash you while your under drugs?

[lasersailor184]

Jesus ****ing christ.  It's going to be one of those threads where I have to explain everything at least 4 or 5 times over.


Any insurance / health care system is a gamble both of the patient's parts, and the provider.  


Do you honestly believe that the insurance / health care systems would be in place if they weren't making money?

[Vulcan]

Originally posted by lasersailor184
Jesus ****ing christ.  It's going to be one of those threads where I have to explain everything at least 4 or 5 times over.


Any insurance / health care system is a gamble both of the patient's parts, and the provider.  


Do you honestly believe that the insurance / health care systems would be in place if they weren't making money?

We don't use an insurance/healthcare system though? As far as I know most other public style healthcare systems are the same (like Norway).

You seem somewhat confused lasersailor over how public health systems work exactly.