Author Topic: Improve the P-47  (Read 12533 times)

Offline HoHun

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« Reply #165 on: October 12, 2006, 06:21:32 PM »
Hi Krusty,

>So if you took the SC and put it behind the engine, like the hellcat (for example) you wouldn't need all that ducting and piping and you'd have room for almost another full "main" tank.

Roger that, clear case.

>However, the SC takes up nearly all of it (certainly not enough room left for even a small tank.

Ah, thanks for the side view! I see plenty of room there:

http://hometown.aol.de/HoHunKhan/p47d_extra_tank.jpg

The brownish area is 1 m x 0.5 m. If you make this a tank 0.9 m wide, you get 450 L (ca. 119 gallons) of volume for an extra tank.

Note that I'd move the radio and oxygen bottles further back into the rear fuselage. As they are fixed weight, it's easy to balance them with the engine mount extension I mentioned above.

(The fuel as variable weight couldn't be balanced as easily because you have two different situations, full and empty tank! :-)

So it would be possible to store the requried fuel internally without even needing to use the wings, which have a storage potential, too. (The F4U-1 had 124 gallons of fuel in the wings, just to calibrate the sense for realistically possible volumes.)

Regards,

Henning (HoHun)

Offline Overlag

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« Reply #166 on: October 12, 2006, 07:13:38 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Krusty
I made an interesting find on the Inter-web-a-majiggy today, when looking for something else.



So if you took the SC and put it behind the engine, like the hellcat (for example) you wouldn't need all that ducting and piping and you'd have room for almost another full "main" tank. -- probably could double the internal tankage. However, the SC takes up nearly all of it (certainly not enough room left for even a small tank.



thing is the ducting at the bottom of the plane protected the pilot rather well.... doing away with that wouldnt make much sence?
Adam Webb - 71st (Eagle) Squadron RAF Wing B
This post has a Krusty rating of 37

Offline Stoney74

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« Reply #167 on: October 13, 2006, 12:43:24 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Krusty
ISo if you took the SC and put it behind the engine, like the hellcat (for example) you wouldn't need all that ducting and piping and you'd have room for almost another full "main" tank.


You are absolutely correct Krusty, as is HoHun.  Replacing the turbo with a supercharger would free up space.  However, what would the performance difference be?  The Hellcat couldn't make near the power at 30K feet that the P-47 did.  I'm guessing that escorting bombers flying at 28K that the high altitude performance was as important as range?  Maybe more important?  There was no other fighter in the world at the time that could match the performance at that operational altitude.  At those altitudes, it also boasted the best rate of climb of any fighter of the time.

Think about this, early on in 1943, in both the Atlantic and Pacific theaters, the commanders complained about the Jugs short legs.  If I was an engineer at Republic, that would become my biggest priority.  First improvement in the P-47 was adding the fat belly to the C's and it was incorporated in the D's rolling off the assembly line.  The kit when fitted, added the plumbing necessary to use pressurized drop tanks.  That's "Extend the range improvement" #1 in early '43.  Then, the D-15 was fitted with pylons to allow even more fuel in drops--improvement #2.  When the D-40 was introduced, it carried more internal fuel than the earlier models--improvement #3.  Then, the mother of all improvements with the N model that could fly 9 hour missions, carrying almost 2/3rd's more fuel than the D models internal--improvement #4.  The P-47N began flight testing in summer of 1944, so you could assume that the new wing design began some months (at least) before then.  

So, I contend that Republic was fairly tenacious about improving the overall capability of the aircraft as soon as feedback from the various theaters identified the weakness of its range.  Remember, this aircraft was designed based on pre-WWII design criteria, and I personally feel that they made just about every improvement they could without totally changing the design or character of the aircraft.  I guess I should have made this argument earlier...

EDIT:  Is there any way to simulate the difference in performance at altitude using a supercharger application a la the Hellcat or Corsair?  Same engine, except for the N model Jug.
« Last Edit: October 13, 2006, 12:58:48 AM by Stoney74 »

Offline HoHun

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« Reply #168 on: October 13, 2006, 02:42:12 AM »
Hi Overlag,

>thing is the ducting at the bottom of the plane protected the pilot rather well.... doing away with that wouldnt make much sence?

Hm, that was a welcome side effect of the turbocharger installation and probably not something that was considered indispensable. I believe most other WW2 fighters had no comparible structures anyway, so the Jug might have survived without it, too.

From a strategic point of view, having escort fighters over Schweinfurt would have been a great advantage, and losing the extra protection and the crumple zone provided by the ducting would have been only a small tactical disadvantage.

So if in 1942, someone would have told the USAAF top brass stuff like "according to our evaluation of gunnery training results, we can't count on the bombers to defend themselves, and according to intelligence on Luftwaffe bases and capabilities, we're going to be in deep trouble if we start our strategic bombing campaign", they might have had the chance to order a longer-ranged variant of the P-47 into production if they acted quickly and decisively.

Thinking about it, January 1943 as orignally suggested by Aquashrimp might not be early enough to have the fighter available in strength ...

Regards,

Henning (HoHun)

Offline gripen

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« Reply #169 on: October 13, 2006, 03:28:31 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by HoHun

So if in 1942, someone would have told the USAAF top brass stuff like "according to our evaluation of gunnery training results, we can't count on the bombers to defend themselves, and according to intelligence on Luftwaffe bases and capabilities, we're going to be in deep trouble if we start our strategic bombing campaign", they might have had the chance to order a longer-ranged variant of the P-47 into production if they acted quickly and decisively.

Thinking about it, January 1943 as orignally suggested by Aquashrimp might not be early enough to have the fighter available in strength ...


Well, if USAAF had wanted escort fighters capable to reach Schweinfurt 1943, the most realistic options would had been the P-51B, P-38 and Spitfire VIII. All these were in production, were used by USAAF and had required range with only minor modifications (wing tanks etc.).

But in reality USAAF believed that escort fighters were not needed; the P-51B was allocated to 9th AF, most P-38s went to MTO as well as Spitfire VIIIs.

The P-38 missed Schweinfurt by days, the P-51B by couple months while the P-47N missed it by 1,5 year.

gripen

Offline bozon

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« Reply #170 on: October 13, 2006, 04:11:55 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Krusty
So if you took the SC and put it behind the engine, like the hellcat (for example) you wouldn't need all that ducting and piping and you'd have room for almost another full "main" tank.  

I'm not sure you can do away with the ducting as they are needed for more than just transporting the gases and I believe they need some minimum volume. In the P-38 they run along the wing in order to make them long enough. Anyone knows?
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Offline Captain Virgil Hilts

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« Reply #171 on: October 13, 2006, 08:46:54 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by bozon
I'm not sure you can do away with the ducting as they are needed for more than just transporting the gases and I believe they need some minimum volume. In the P-38 they run along the wing in order to make them long enough. Anyone knows?


Only the early P-38 had intercooler ducts in the outer wings, and they weren't just ducts, they were the actual intercoolers, just long empty boxes that ran along the leading edge of the wing where they'd be exposed to cold air. But those ductwork type intercoolers were very inefficient, and prevented the engines from running full boost. They'd have had to have been longer still to have cooled the air enough to work well.

The late P-38 had chin mount intercoolers, and the reason the ductwork was long (it ran from the turbocharger behind the engine forward to the intercoolers and then back to the engine, but did not run through the wings) is that they had the turbocharger behind the engine, and the new core type intercooler had to be in the chin of the cowl in front of the engine in order to work. It made the system more efficient, but it made for a much tighter fit inside the fuselage, making service work even more difficult.

The truth is, the longer the duct work for the intercooler, the more turbo lag you have, because you have a longer distance for the pressure change to travel. You mount the intercooler where it is the most efficient at removing heat, because that is the most important factor.

My T Type Regal has the turbocharger mounted directly on the top of the engine, and has no intercooler at all. I use methanol injection to cool the charge. The only "piping" is a very short tube with two o-rings that adapts the turbocharger compressor outlet to the intake, and the throttle is bolted directly to the compressor.

The later version of my Regal had the turbocharger mounted on the front of the engine and two short hoses that ran from the compressor to the intercooler (right in front of the engine, there is a fan on the harmonic balancer to draw air through it) and from the intercooler to the throttle, now mounted AFTER the compressor and the intercooler. However, that intercooler is small and inefficient, when you modify the car, one big step is to mount a large intercooler out in front of the radiator and condenser and run longer hoses. The larger intercooler flows more air, but is also exposed to colder air by not being behind the radiator.

In the case of the P-47, it might have been possible to adapt a small version of the P-51 radiator cooling system for use as an intercooler system allowing greater intercooler efficiency and use of the heated air for added thrust. It would depend mostly on the increase in drag as compared to the increase in efficency and the added thrust.

In the case of the P-38 it might have been possible to enlarge the radiators and their bulges and mount the core type intercoolers in front of the radiators, and also use the P-51 style cooling. The boudary layer scoop used to take in air for the radiator on the P-51 didn't increase drag much and did help to increase air pressure on the radiator, raising cooling capacity, it was that scoop that allowed the pressurized and heated air from the radiator to create thrust. It might have been possible to do the same on the later P-38, and the slicker early cowls could have been left alone to decrease drag there. It would also have shortened the ductwork and created a cleaner installation.
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Offline Captain Virgil Hilts

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« Reply #172 on: October 13, 2006, 09:03:37 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by gripen
Well, if USAAF had wanted escort fighters capable to reach Schweinfurt 1943, the most realistic options would had been the P-51B, P-38 and Spitfire VIII. All these were in production, were used by USAAF and had required range with only minor modifications (wing tanks etc.).

But in reality USAAF believed that escort fighters were not needed; the P-51B was allocated to 9th AF, most P-38s went to MTO as well as Spitfire VIIIs.

The P-38 missed Schweinfurt by days, the P-51B by couple months while the P-47N missed it by 1,5 year.

gripen


gripen is exacly correct here. It was again a problem with short sighted and careless leadership that brought on unescorted bombers, and not a lack of suitable planes (there was a lack of numbers, but not types). Even if they believed that the bomber could get through without escorts, it would have been wise to escort them anyway, to allow them the greatest chance to do the job. The reason MORE fighters with BETTER range and BETTER performance weren't already there is not because they couldn't be built or couldn't be built YET, but because the people running the show didn't WANT them because they didn't think they NEEDED them. It was then easy to say the nightmare of unescorted daylight bombing came about because of a lack of suitable planes, AFTER the fact. It hid the fact that the planes could have been there and been ready had it not been for poor decisions. Blaming Lockheed and Republic for not having enough planes and having them ready made things easy to hide, or swallow, depending on your view point.

Remember that the 20th and 55th fighter groups went operational in less than 60 days (less than 30 in reality for some) with the P-38H, while the P-38J was not only in production, but being delivered to training units, and the P-38K, with greater range and speed even than the P-38L, had been declined by the WPB because of a required two week production delay. The P-38 capacity at Lockheed Burbank could have been DOUBLED by moving the Lockheed Burbank B-17 lines to any number of companies capable of producing heavy bombers, like Consolidated Vultee Nashville, where, of all things, they were trying to build P-38's.

At the time, for increased range, the P-47 need only a fuel system modification and some drop tank work, and this was known LONG before Schweinfurt, and there were PLENTY of P-47's.

The P-51 was close to being ready, but even after deployed, it suffered some serious engine problems. This too could have been solved earlier had it not been for the myopic and stubborn insistance on unescorted bombing.
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Offline HoHun

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« Reply #173 on: October 13, 2006, 04:26:14 PM »
Hi Hilts,

>In the case of the P-47, it might have been possible to adapt a small version of the P-51 radiator cooling system for use as an intercooler system allowing greater intercooler efficiency and use of the heated air for added thrust.

The intercooler was of course necessary even without the turbo-supercharger to get good high-altitude performance. In a non-turbocharged P-47, it would be possible to set the intercooler very close to the front firewall, reducing ducting losses. Probably a minor thing, the main point really would be to free the fuselage space.

>In the case of the P-38 it might have been possible to enlarge the radiators and their bulges and mount the core type intercoolers in front of the radiators, and also use the P-51 style cooling.

Interesting idea - I guess that  would really have been a speed booster for the P-38. Was the P-38 ever used in racing, and if it was, did they try anything like this? (I recently read an article on a modified P-38 which, judging from the photograph, didn't appear to have any turbo-superchargers mounted, though the article attributed a recent emergency landing to turbo failure. Somewhat confusing.)

>it was that scoop that allowed the pressurized and heated air from the radiator to create thrust.

Hm, I'm a bit sceptical about net thrust, but it appears that the jet cooler reduced the power lost to cooling to a term increasing linearly with speed, while all other drag increases to the cube of speed. That means that at high speed, cooling drag becomes almost neglectible compared to parasite drag.

Regards,

Henning (HoHun)

Offline Captain Virgil Hilts

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« Reply #174 on: October 13, 2006, 10:03:06 PM »
Much of the ductwork on the P-47 had more to do with where the turbocharger was located than anything else. You can get away with less or no intercooling with a mechanical crank driven supercharger, depending on how efficient it is. But without an intercooler on a turbocharger you have to reduce boost by about 50%, unless you use chemical cooling (like the methanol injection I use, or the propane injection some use).

If you were to mount the intercooler by the firewall, you'd KILL efficiency. an intercooler really has to have a great deal of air flow to be effective, AT LEAST as much as a radiator. Mounting it behind the engine and between the engine and the firewall would reduce efficiency a great deal.

I don't know how much the cooling system/intercooler change would help the P-38, but it likely wouldn't hurt.

I agree, it wasn't really that the cooling system on the P-51 made it faster, it's just that it created the least amount of net loss.

The last P-38 raced at Reno that I remember is Lefty Gardner's "White Lightning" (since sold to "Red Bull" drink corporation), and it is VERY stock. In fact, it uses, or used, stock surplus engines right out of the crate. The last time I saw it the turbochargers were not mounted, just the shields and covers were there. It also is set up as an early type recon plane with the low drag cowls. From what I understand, the "modification to "White Lightning" is only that it was converted from a late model P-38 recon plane to an early model. That's what I was told and saw evidence of, it may have changed.

IF that is indeed the case, then it cannot have the turbochargers on it, because a late model would not have the ductwork intercoolers in the wings, and the plane cannot have the core type intercoolers in the chins, because it has the early chin which has no room for intercoolers. It also did not have the sound that the turbochargers give, it did not sound anything like "Porky II" or "Glacier Girl". It is my understanding that "Glacier Girl" is the ONLY early model to have flown in several decades that DOES have operational turbochargers.

Best I remember, no one has raced a P-38 seriously with any sort of budget in at least 30 years. They are far too rare and too expensive, and racing one would be very expensive, you need twice the amount of parts. I think Lefty hit 399MPH a few years ago, with a stock, unmodified P-38. It could be done, and made to be very fast, but you need to spend enough you could buy "Dago Red" (was the fastest P-51 at Reno the last few years) and all the spares, plus a complete back up plane that would be fast enough to get to the "Silver" Unlimited race.

Lad Gardner, Lefty's son, put "White Lightning" down in a cotton field in Greenwood Mississippi about 4 years or so ago, maybe more, because of a carburetor fire. It was towed to a hangar and set back on its gear, but they couldn't raise the funds to repair it, so it was sold. That's the only P-38 I've heard of making an emergency landing here in years. The others were all actual crashes. About 15 years ago, both engines on the CAF P-38 quit on takeoff, and it crash landed, both people on board were badly hurt, and the CAF has made no progress in repairing it that I'm aware of.
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Offline Debonair

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« Reply #175 on: October 13, 2006, 10:50:58 PM »
i'm not sure a P-38 could safely handle enough of a Mach number to be competetive at reno (would be about 0.67 ), especially so close to the ground.  I'd love to see what an F-82 could do.  Someone should buy Strega & Dago Red and biuld them into a Twin Mustang

:O :O :O :O

Offline HoHun

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« Reply #176 on: October 14, 2006, 06:04:48 AM »
Hi Hilts,

>You can get away with less or no intercooling with a mechanical crank driven supercharger, depending on how efficient it is. But without an intercooler on a turbocharger you have to reduce boost by about 50%, unless you use chemical cooling (like the methanol injection I use, or the propane injection some use).

For very high altitude performance, an intercooler is very important as the high compression ratios will heat the charge considerably. One reason the Dora was not a good high-altitude aircraft was the lack of an intercooler, and if I remember correctly, even the Dora versions with a Jumo 213E/F had to resort to methanol-water cooling to compensate for the lack of an intercooler, just like the turbochargers you mention.

>If you were to mount the intercooler by the firewall, you'd KILL efficiency. an intercooler really has to have a great deal of air flow to be effective, AT LEAST as much as a radiator. Mounting it behind the engine and between the engine and the firewall would reduce efficiency a great deal.

Hm, maybe I didn't explain it clearly enough: I was thinking of keeping the existing intake on the P-47, but moving the intercooler to a point just aft of the firewall. Shortening the ducts should be beneficial, the only thing to watch out for is to keep it away from the hot engine, which would heat up everything and reduce efficiency, which is probably what you are warning against.

>The last P-38 raced at Reno that I remember is Lefty Gardner's "White Lightning" (since sold to "Red Bull" drink corporation), and it is VERY stock. In fact, it uses, or used, stock surplus engines right out of the crate. The last time I saw it the turbochargers were not mounted, just the shields and covers were there.

>Lad Gardner, Lefty's son, put "White Lightning" down in a cotton field in Greenwood Mississippi about 4 years or so ago, maybe more, because of a carburetor fire.

Ah, thanks, that must have been my mystery plane! Beautiful non-military blue-white-red paintjob? The turbocharger failure story didn't make much sense, but a carburettor fire would probably demand an immediate emergency landing. I hope the new owner will succeed in bringing White Lightning back up into the air!

Regards,

Henning (HoHun)

Offline Captain Virgil Hilts

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« Reply #177 on: October 14, 2006, 07:01:08 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Debonair
i'm not sure a P-38 could safely handle enough of a Mach number to be competetive at reno (would be about 0.67 ), especially so close to the ground.  I'd love to see what an F-82 could do.  Someone should buy Strega & Dago Red and biuld them into a Twin Mustang

:O :O :O :O


Most pilots, especially test pilots like Levier, Burcham, Mattern, and Kelsey said that critical Mach and compression were not a factor below 20K feet. Besides, these days they modify the planes enough that they could alter the wing profile. The two main reasons for the wing profile that causes the problem on the P-38 are fuel capacity and high altitude/high rate of climb, and neither of those is necessary at Reno.

I think the big draw back to a P-38 or an F-82 would be the extreme expense of reducing drag on a larger plane, plus the extreme expense of  having two engines (most teams don't have a really good spare, imagine having two on the plane PLUS a spare) since they have over $100K in the engine, and in the case of the Merlin it is a grenade with the pin pulled. They KNOW the Merlin IS going to come apart, the only question is when and how bad. The other thing about a twin is that if the inside engine blows quickly while you're in a turn at near 500MPH, the outside engine would probably fly you right into the ground. Even the big radials blow up, though not as bad or as often as the Merlins.
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Offline Debonair

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« Reply #178 on: October 14, 2006, 07:22:26 AM »
I'd bet that Mach number wasn't a factor below 20k for those gentlemen because they just didn't reach the speeds needed to hit high enough Mach numbers below 20k, but at Reno, with density altitudes probably about 7500' i'd bet a stock airframe P-38 would be in the range of Vuh-uh if it was running at a competetive speed (about Mach 0.65 - 0.7?).  Of course i'm no expert & those guys who handle the racing planes are.  It surprised the crap out of me when they broke 500, especialy at low altitudes & with the all the turns, you'd have to guess they can do even a bit more traveling just straight ahead...i think i'd like them to let one of the stormbird.com 262s race, just to see it finish way back lolol

Offline Captain Virgil Hilts

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« Reply #179 on: October 14, 2006, 07:23:17 AM »
Hohun,
In the case of the two speed two stage crank driven superchargers on most U.S. planes, they still didn't make near as much power above 25K. I'd have to look at the charts, but the P-51 for example was down to around 900-1100 HP at 27K, so they weren't making enough boost to make heat or power up high. The thing about a crank driven supercharger, be it Roots style or centrifugal, is that heat and inefficiency increase exponentially with RPM. So does the HP drag. You can only turn them so fast before they absorb a lot more power than they make by compressing air. The only choice is to make them bigger. Then they become heavy and take up way too much space. Also, they begin to make so much heat that you cannot cool the charge enough because you cannot put enough intercooler on it, since an intercooler requires space, and requires a substantial amount of air flow to exchange heat. Granted, at high altitude the air is much cooler, but it is also much thinner, requiring more air volume to absorb the same amount of heat (a cubic foot of air at 30K contains less air than a cubic foot of air at sea level).

Now that I understand exactly where you wanted to mount the intercooler, it has a better chance of working that way, but I doubt you can  get enough air through it to make it efficient, and when you factor in the paragraph above regarding the efficiency of crank driven centrifugal superchargers, I still don't think you could make the P-47 perform as well as it did without the turbocharger. I just don't think you could put a big enough supercharger on it or spin a smaller one fast enough.

Yes, "White Lightning" has had a red, white, and blue paint job for years. The carb fire got so bad that it burned a substantial section of the fuselage and parts of the wing, and it was in danger of spreading to the fuel system. The smoke got so bad in the cockpit that Lad said he could barely see or breathe. The damage from landing was not terrible, but it needed about $100K worth of repairs, and Lefty is well into his seventies, they simply ran out of time and money, either the plane had to fly and make some money or they had to sell it.

My only fear is that a corporation will not take good care of the plane and spend what needs to be spent to make sure it is in perfect condition. If the accountants get control of the project, corners will be cut, and when you are dealing with planes like that, whether it is a P-38 or an Me109, you simply cannot allow money to be an issue, you have to spend whatever it takes, because a failure will destroy the plane and possible kill people. Besides that, ther probably aren't 20 pilots in the entire world qualified to actually FLY a P-38. Sure, there are pilots who can ferry one around, but if you're going to fly one for a show, you need someone with the talent and skill that a couple of guys at Planes of Fame have, and few others. LLoyds of London does not require that Steve Hinton be the only pilot in command of "Glacer Girl" just for fun.

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SaVaGe