F4u

[Saxman]

There's really only three planes I HATE coming across in a Hog regardless of situation:

Spit XVI, Ki-84, Hurri 2C

The Spixteen as modelled is capable of just plain ridiculous stunts. Last night I was being chased by a pair and nosed over into a full-power dive under WEP, with a slight left turn followed by as hard a pull out to the left as I could manage without blacking out. My airspeed CLEARED 600mph and he was matching me maneuver for maneuver. Bull effin' watermelon any Spit could maneuver at that speed without ripping his wings off. The even MORE ridiculous thing is that I started at 400yds out, and by the time I levelled out I only opened to 600 so his speed HAD to have been above 500-550mph. Fortunately, Spixteens USUALLY fall apart with only a couple hits (except if you shoot him in the engine. For some reason I just can't understand, the Merlin on a Spit can take about a hundred rounds without even smoking, but one ping will blow out the Corsair's R-2800). This in itself is frustrating because if I shear his wing off with 10 rds of .50 call, and some guy with .303s lands about 200 in his fuselage without causing any appreciable damage, more often than not I only get an assist.

There's nothing particularly suspect about the Ki-84's modelling that I'm aware of (although like above, I've never seen the Ki's handling aversely affected when travelling at Ludicrous Speed, whereas historically the Frank's controls started turning to mush as speeds started to exceed 350-375mph). They WERE just that good. F4U-1/C/D can't run or climb out on the Frank (although I HAVE held them at bay with a hard spiral climb to the left), and even with flaps out the Hog is hard-pressed in a turning fight. Usually the Franks I kill are either target-fixated or otherwise don't see me coming.

I hate, HATE, HATE Hurri 2Cs. They can turn a full plane or even a dead-six shot into a HO within only a couple hundred yards at ANY airspeed (anyone who claims otherwise is full of it. I've seen and had it done to me almost EVERY time I've run into one). They can practically INSTANTANEOUSLY restore E, and they have GOT to either have some sort of collision detection bug, cloaking device, or spatial jamming field because I have lost track of how many times a 2C has flown DIRECTLY through my bullet stream without so much as taking a ping. The only thing they CAN'T do are go fast, and climb. In fact, I think they're worse about forcing overshoots than Il-2s. There has to be some overmodelling here, because these things multiply the ludicrocity of the Spixteen by a factor of ten.

[Widewing]

Originally posted by Viking
I beg to differ …

… And the speed difference is more than 5 mph. It's 8 mph on the deck and +-20 mph at 2k to 6k. I find both the La-7s speed and acceleration advantages to be a lot more than meaningless.

This is because the A-20 is cutting the corner on the 109, pulling less G (bleeding less E) and closing in the horizontal as well. Fly a 109K and an A-20 in a line abreast formation and then test their zoom-climbs. Both pulling the same G into the vertical. The 109 will handily out-climb the A-20.

I have seen enough spiral-climbing 109s to know that is not the case.

You will notice that a mere 25 feet separates the turn radiuses of the La-7 and F4U-4 using flaps. Without flaps the La-7 surprisingly out-turns the F4U-4 by a significant margin.

The difference in turn radius between the Spit I and Hurri I is indeed very similar to the La-7 and F4U-4, but only in feet. You'll notice that a difference of 23-25 feet is much more significant for the Spit and Hurri comparison since they have much smaller turning-circles in general.

Again, if you fight these two planes straight up, head to head Co-alt, the La-7 will find itself at a disadvantage right off the merge as a good F4U pilot will reverse his Hog mighty quick... Insanely quick. I agree that the La-7 turns better when the F4U-4 does not use flaps. But, that's like saying that a Honda Civic will out-corner a Formula One car if you remove the wheels from the F1 car. A Hog WILL be using flaps. Flying a DHog against Urchin's Spit16, the Hog won every merge and could hold that advantage long enough to get guns on.

Naturally, each pilot is comfortable in his ride, so I expect disagreements.

As to the A-20 vs 109K-4 in a zoom climb... We've tested this recently, including side-by-side tests and you may be surprised at the data (but not if you recognize that the A-20 has substantially greater kinetic energy at the beginning).

Beginning at 50 feet ASL, both aircraft are allowed to accelerate at max power. Watching E6B, at precisely 300 mph TAS, each aircraft is pulled into a pure vertical climb. This was performed 5 times on each, with the best result from each appearing below.

Measured data:

Time to 2,000 feet ASL
Time to 3,000 feet ASL
Speed (TAS) at 3,000 feet ASL

Results:

Bf 109K-4 to 2,000 feet: 8.44 seconds
A-20G to 2,000 feet: 7.24 seconds

Bf 109K-4 to 3,000 feet: 13.57 seconds
A-20G to 3,000 feet: 13.21 seconds.

Bf 109K-4, speed at 3,000 feet: 106 mph
A-20G, speed at 3,000 feet: 101 mph

So, what does this establish? When tested side by side, the A-20G quickly surges ahead and is about 70-80 yards ahead at 2,000 feet. At 3,000 feet the gap is closing, but the A-20 is still about 60-70 yards in front.

No need to cut the corner, but doing so only exacerbate's the other guy's problem.

The moral of the story is, no matter what you are flying, going vertical against a Co-E Havoc will gain you nothing over the first 15 seconds, and if you are flying a light-weight fighter, the difference is even greater. Fifteen seconds is a long time to have six nose mounted fifties behind you and closing.

Now, in a straight climb at best climb angle and speed, the 109K-4 simply runs away. Nonetheless, in a close-range dogfight, straight climb performance is not as significant as zoom climb. Just remember this; Kinetic Energy = ˝ x mass x velocity˛. Co-E, the heavier aircraft has more stored energy. However, it cannot maintain that advantage for long because gravity quickly overcomes the momentum. Yet, it gives you a substantial window of time to get a killing shot in.

I've received some 200 channel rants, such as: "BS!!!!!, a freakin A-20 can't outclimb a Ki-84!!!" But yeah, it can outclimb a Ki-84 for long enough to kill it.

Now, bring that bad old La-7 to the TA some weekday evening and we'll play tag.

My regards,

Widewing

[jon]

Originally posted by ded
WEP makes the fuel last LONGER.  The F4U-4 uses water injection which increases gas mileage, same as the P47N

show me how that works:rofl wide open throttle is just that, wide open throttlewater injection adds horsepower. over and abouve that.if you backed off throttle and could engage water injection to give same power then you could save gas  but that is not why they had it  (wep)stands for war emergency power. and that is what it is used for .

[Widewing]

Originally posted by jon
show me how that works:rofl wide open throttle is just that, wide open throttlewater injection adds horsepower. over and abouve that.if you backed off throttle and could engage water injection to give same power then you could save gas  but that is not why they had it  (wep)stands for war emergency power. and that is what it is used for .

Ded is correct. Have a look at the Specific Engine flight Chart  for the F4U/FG-1 series below. Note that when WEP is used with water injection, the fuel flow rate drops. This is due to water being part of the total volume being flowed into the carb. HTC modeled this, but only for the F4U-4 and P-47N



My regards,

Widewing

[Viking]

Originally posted by Widewing
Now, bring that bad old La-7 to the TA some weekday evening and we'll play tag.

My regards,

Widewing

I'd love to (even if I'm going to get my butt kicked).

[Viking]

Originally posted by jon
show me how that works:rofl wide open throttle is just that, wide open throttlewater injection adds horsepower. over and abouve that.if you backed off throttle and could engage water injection to give same power then you could save gas  but that is not why they had it  (wep)stands for war emergency power. and that is what it is used for .

You are forgetting mixture. At military-power the F4U-4 runs at a very rich mixture to cool the cylinder heads and the charge mixture. At WEP the water injection does the same job so the engine can be run at a leaner mixture. Water injection does NOT add horsepower. It cools the charge mixture allowing for more fuel to be injected without detonation problems. More fuel adds horsepower.

So … at WEP the engine does indeed burn more fuel, but at MIL power even more fuel is evaporated simply as a coolant (much like the water at WEP).

[ded]

Originally posted by jon
show me how that works:rofl wide open throttle is just that, wide open throttlewater injection adds horsepower. over and abouve that.if you backed off throttle and could engage water injection to give same power then you could save gas  but that is not why they had it  (wep)stands for war emergency power. and that is what it is used for .

I know I've already been backed up twice on this, but go ahead and take an f4u-4 or p47-n up, open the e6b and turn wep on.  Note the fuel burn and time remaining.



Water injection increases compression and instead of the engine burning 100% fuel, it's burning 95% fuel and 5% water.  This both increases gas mileagle and makes the power output greater.  This can also be used on a modern day car to give you much better gas mileage.  There are kits outthere you can retrofit with even.

[2bighorn]

Originally posted by Viking
You will notice that a mere 25 feet separates the turn radiuses of the La-7 and F4U-4 using flaps. Without flaps the La-7 surprisingly out-turns the F4U-4 by a significant margin.

Keep in mind that's a chart of sustained turn rate without flaps and is useful only as companion chart of that with full flaps. It should just give you an idea of how effective flaps are on particular ride.
At typical merge speeds of f4u-4 and la7, you're limited to max G ie blackout. Even so, seems that f4u-4 has better instantaneous turn and more often than not it'll gain slight angle right of the merge. If not, it can drop its flaps earlier (at higher speed) than la7, gaining even more. And when the fight slows down to stall speeds, f4u-4 controls still have plenty of authority, where la7 sometimes refuses to follow the input.

La7 has slight advantage in pure E fight at low altitude only, if you stick with it from the begining of the fight and even then, those 50 cals have long reach...

All in all, when pilots are of equal skills, I completely agree with Widewing, f4u-4 should win more often then not.

As for the the charts comparison...
If you compare la7 and spit XVI, they are very comparable, but in practice between the two, difference is far greater and spit XVI wins clearly over la7.

[Saxman]

Instantaneous turn in the F4U is just ludicrous, especially when you factor in flaps.

Case in point, was chasing a Spit 8 through a turn, one notch of flaps and losing ground. I dropped another notch and that almost instantly hauled the nose around to a shooting position.

Sometimes, though, I think the Corsair's flaps work a little TOO well...

[SgtPappy]

yea, i've been outturned in my Spit8 by TA57 in his 4-hog... so , like a noob, i switched to what defeated me... i tried out the A-hog and 4-Hog.. using flaps, rudder, etc. and my butt kept getting kicked. Should i be patient and train with this plane or go back to my Spit8 and train with that further?  

Which do you think is better overall (factoring out armament, fuel settings, etc. only comparing things like performance, and more specifically, roll and rudder authority at different speeds etc, etc.)

[Saxman]

The thing with the F4U is that it's NOT a plane that will win you instant gratification the first time you jump in. You want that, fly a Spixteen. It DOES take practice to get the hang of the F4U, but she's a DAMN good ride once you do.

As for which is best, it depends. The F4U-4 far and away is the overall best of the Hogs. While she doesn't turn as well as the early models, her acceleration, climb and top speed are all more than enough. I'd say as a pure dogfighter the F4U-1A is a close second. You've basically got the speed and horizontal turning of the -1 combined with better acceleration, rate of climb and vertical performance of the 1D.

Honestly, while the 1D and 4 carry have same ordinance options, I'd say the 1D is the superior wrecking ball. She's slower than the 1, 1A and 4, but she has heavier loadout than the other early-model Hogs without the perk price of the 4 (the perk cost on the 4 is awful steep to risk on a ground attack run). The 1C would be my second choice. Even though she loses two pair of rockets over the 1D, the cannon are good tools for bringing down town buildings and general base suppresision.

Aileron and rudder authority don't really vary that drastically between the models. The -1 feels somewhat heavier to me than the 1D, though other people disagree and swear by the -1. The 1C DEFINITELY feels the added weight of the Hispanos. The 1A probably feels the lightest and most responsive of the non-perked models. But again, there's not a drastic difference between them.

[KgB]

Originally posted by Rocket
I do get nervous against La-7, spit XIV, p51(usually scares me the most), newer 109s, some 190 pilots.  (right now nervous every flight tho.. still too damn rusty).  

S!
Rocket

Please,two p51 against one la7 do not stand a chance(dog fight) unless la7 is a noob,Kozhedub proved it:)
And i dont even remeber when last time a was shot down in la 7 by 190.

[Widewing]

Originally posted by KgB
Please,two p51 against one la7 do not stand a chance(dog fight) unless la7 is a noob,Kozhedub proved it:)
And i dont even remeber when last time a was shot down in la 7 by 190.

Tell ya what, meet me in the TA. We'll take off from the 20K fields, you in an La-7, I'll take a Mustang. We'll see if it can handle one P-51 at the altitude the airplane was engineered to fight at. Standard dueling rules.

My regards,

Widewing

[KgB]

Originally posted by Widewing
Tell ya what, meet me in the TA. We'll take off from the 20K fields, you in an La-7, I'll take a Mustang.
My regards,
Widewing

You will never see la7 at 20k,well you shouldnt:)When p51 entered service most german aces were killed, p51 never faced a real enemy,unlike Brits or Russians.Most  dog fights took place under 9k in ww2,and they were on eastern front.And obout DA,sure any time.
We'll see how i can handle one P-51 in an la7 at the altitude the airplane(la7) was engineered to fight at. Standard dueling rules.
My regards as well sir.

[Saxman]

Ooooh. It's going to be an execution!