Author Topic: Screw it - Time to cleanse the world of ALL Islamic radicals  (Read 2490 times)

Offline -lynx-

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« Reply #45 on: November 29, 2001, 10:47:00 AM »
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it's clear they were a lot tougher than anybody gave them credit for, but it's also clear that a great deal of this toughness came with the assistance of American airpower.
Exactly - if you scroll up this thread you'll see that this is what started this argument:
Over-simplifying Toad's posts - sorry Toad -
"Russians fight dirty - Americans fight clean". I just pointed out that Americans don't actually "fight" per se as the fight is going on below under the wings of B52s unloading on Taleban positions. There is no cowardise in it - you read it so and I don't see how you could. Had the marines - god forbid! - been in those trenches losses would have been severe and there would be very little "cleanliness". You say - liberators. They say - "evil". That is you, an American, no matter what you do. British contingent was stopped from going in by the Afgans themselves. They don't want to be "liberated" by infidels. It's that simple.

FYI: 20 years ago a communist candidate won election in Kabul fair and square. But his obviously too progressive policies in education, emancipation etc didn't sit well with what now is Taleban. A civil war started. A communist but nevertheless legitimately and democratically elected government asked for help form the communist superpower. It was given. An occupational army went in and was met with smiles etc. Those didn't last long as that army was soon called upon enforcing local communist barons' rule. And it was foreign - infidels. In my year at the Uni there were guys who went through Afganistan both as infantry and tankers. Nobody liked to talk about it or remember it. You were sent there, they shot at you and were very clever at trying to kill you. Your options were to die or shoot back.

The US under the banner "we can't just let those darn commies win" armed, trained and fed... You don't think that without your Stingers they stood a chance against Hind gunships, do you?...

The rest is history and now we are eating the fruits of the last 20 years...

p.s. on the subject of communism I stand to the right of Grunherz although I'm not that vocal about it. And yes, I do remember - I lived there for 27 years.

Offline Boroda

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« Reply #46 on: November 29, 2001, 12:11:00 PM »
Misha, you said all I wanted to say.

Again: I support an anti-terrorist operation. And there always will be civilian casualities in ground warfare. Ask Hangtime. War is war, and if someone wants to win - he has to close his eyes on some things. Especialy when the rules are set by the gangsters who don't mind taking pregnant women as hostages or blow up buildings full of innocent people. And you can't win if your right hand fights terrorists while your left hand protects and helps them.

Toad, your data about civilian casualities ether includes mostly victims of your beloved "freedom-fighters", or is a standard exaggerated hallucination of "human-rights protectors" who's purposes didn't change since 70s Brzhezinsky's hypocritical politics of pressure against USSR. He admitted many times that they didn't care about "human rights" at all, they just needed a good propaganda issue about USSR.

Many people here consider me a "commie", and it's impossible to explain them that I'll never vote for communists or wish communist regime back here. Just like it's beyond Toad's understanding why I talked about civilian casualities in Afghanistan. My polemic methods look almost useless here  :(

Offline Hangtime

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« Reply #47 on: November 29, 2001, 06:23:00 PM »
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Jeepers Hang - do you ever speak not from your arse you dolp? Which part of "it's difficult to hit a B52 at 30,000 feet from an AK-47 on the ground" you find particularly confusing?  

As far as what portion of my anatomy does the talking.. and when... well; I'd guess you'd have to be here. But, since the chance of you getting a state-funded ticket to yer own asswhuppin is kinda slim; I guess you'll just have to guess.

As far as hittin a B52 with an AK 47.. well, I ain't no rocket scientist, but let me venture a guess... None?

Whats the point? We had a REAL target for our buffs... unlike the the russian arty brigades, who simply destroyed an entire city, citizens and all.

 
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You are the worst example why people may dislike Americans - dumb, arrogant and eager to brag about things you contributed nothing towards. Oh yeah - you can't even f**king spell.  

So, tell us Lynx; what do you object too? The truth, or just my cavalier attempts at spelling? Oh, BTW, I believe it's spelled 'diddlying' not 'f**king'. I wouldn't even know how to pronounce what your word is.. I don't speak rooski.

As far as actual contributions to the current effort.. my batteries are in every diddlying predator drone. (note the lack of **) Further, the R&D work I participated in on the NRL's RPV projects has already saved American lives, and the stuff I do every day right now makes some Marine feel a little safer, some terrorist a little deader.

Further, yah miserable twit, when the time came for me to bear arms for my nation, I served. Willingly. That particular war may not have been just, but as far as I was concerned, I was doing my part to stop communist agression. I never considered then that I was making south vietnam safe for general motors, and the thought that the vietnamese were potential customers for RCA TV's was ludicrious. Still is, as far as i know.

 
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 If you believe me a knee-jerk anti-American - I can't argue with that since you obviously can't reason. If you could you'd have seen that Hang's contribution to the war effort would be shutting his mouth on the subject he's got no clue about and keeping it shut.

Reaaaaallly?? Oh, this is grand indeed. So, by your lights, the best contribution I or the resta the ugly americans here that have a vested intrest in security and freedom would be to 'shut my mouth'?

If I get yer drift right; you suggest that the resta the world should shut up and turn a blind eye to the way the Russians are handling their lil terrorist problem? Sorry Lynx, that just ain't gonna happen.

Further, since yer being such a charmer, c'mon over here and try to shut my mouth, hugahunk. Yer pukin dog commie ancestors tried, failed, and became extinct.  :D

But, fun as this line of non-reasoning is, lets go with your approach a lil longer. Maybe we will discover something.

 
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 British contingent was stopped from going in by the Afgans themselves. They don't want to be "liberated" by infidels. It's that simple.

Odd.. they let the US marines in... wonder why? Wouldn't have anything to do with a coupla very nasty invasion attempts by britan abouta hundred years ago; would it?

 
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A communist but nevertheless legitimately and democratically elected government asked for help form the communist superpower.  

Oh, horseshit. Thats spelled H O R S E meatball. The election was as rigged as every other communist 'election' conducted buy your former government.. Jeezus H. Keeerist, Lynx, get another fediddlein CLUE... The Russians were as popular in Afganistan as the British were in Washington in 1812.

To refresh your history in the region... oh, BTW, History IS in the public domain.

In 1973 Muhammad Daud overthrew the king in a coup. He declared Afghanistan a republic with himself as president. Daud announced ambitious plans for economic development and tried to play the USSR against Western donors, but his dictatorial government was opposed both by radical left-wing intellectuals and soldiers and by traditionalist ethnic leaders. The leading leftist organization was the People's Democratic Party of Afghanistan (PDPA), which had been founded in 1965 and in 1967 split into a pro-Soviet Parcham faction and a much more radical Khalq faction. The two groups joined forces in 1976 to oppose Daud.

In April 1978, after Daud launched a crackdown against the PDPA, leftist military officers overthrew him. PDPA leader Noor Muhammad Taraki became president. Taraki and his lieutenant Hafizullah Amin, both members of the Khalq faction, purged many Parcham leaders. Taraki announced a sweeping revolutionary program, including land reform, the emancipation of women, and a campaign against illiteracy. Late in 1978 Islamic traditionalists and ethnic leaders who objected to rapid social change began an armed revolt. By the summer of 1979 the rebels controlled much of the Afghan countryside. In September Taraki was deposed and later killed. Amin, his successor, tried vigorously to suppress the rebellion and resisted Soviet efforts to make him moderate his policies. The government's position deteriorated, however, and on December 25, 1979, Soviet forces invaded. They quickly won control of Kabul and other important centers. The Soviets executed Amin on December 27 and Babrak Karmal, leader of PDPA's Parcham faction, was installed as president.

Karmal denounced Amin's repressive policies and promised to combine social and economic reform with respect for Islam and for Afghan traditions. But the government, dependent on Soviet military forces, was unpopular, and the rebellion intensified. During the next few years about 3 million war refugees fled to Pakistan and 1.5 million fled to Iran. Many refugees also moved from the countryside to Kabul. The antigovernment guerrilla forces included dozens of factions. They operated from bases around Peshawar, Pakistan, and, to a lesser extent, in Iran. They were sustained by weapons and money from the United States, Saudi Arabia, Iran, and China. By the mid-1980s the United States was spending hundreds of millions of dollars each year to aid Afghan rebels based in Pakistan.

During the 1980s Soviet forces increasingly bore the brunt of the fighting. By 1986 about 118,000 Soviet troops and 50,000 Afghan government troops were facing perhaps 130,000 guerrillas. Although the Soviet troops used modern equipment, including tanks and bombers, the guerrillas were also well armed, and they had local support and operated more effectively in familiar mountainous terrain. In 1986 the United States began supplying the rebels with Stinger missiles able to shoot down Soviet armored helicopters.

The effects of the war on Afghanistan were devastating. Half of the population was displaced inside the country, forced to migrate outside the country, wounded, or killed. Estimates of combat fatalities range between 700,000 and 1.3 million people. With the school system largely destroyed, industrialization severely restricted, and large irrigation projects badly damaged, the economy of the country was crippled. Despite some negative reaction, the presence of so many refugees in neighboring Pakistan and Iran actually improved Afghan relations with those countries. In addition, many of the refugees improved their lives considerably by leaving Afghanistan and the dangers of war therein. Because the majority of the refugees were religious, their fellow Muslims in Iran and Pakistan accepted them, even while the Iranian and Pakistani governments were striving to bring about the fall of the Communist regime in Kabul.

In May 1986 Karmal was replaced as PDPA leader by Muhammad Najibullah, a member of the Parcham faction who had headed the Afghan secret police. In November 1987 Najibullah was elected president.G. Soviet Withdrawal

When Mikhail Gorbachev became the Soviet leader in 1985, he gave high priority to getting Soviet troops out of the costly, unpopular, unwinnable war in Afghanistan. In May 1988 Afghanistan, Pakistan, the USSR, and the United States signed agreements providing for an end to foreign intervention in Afghanistan, and the USSR began withdrawing its forces. The Soviet withdrawal was completed in February 1989.

Any key points missed Lynx?

Or is it "Misha"?

It should be 'Tool'.
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Offline -tronski-

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« Reply #48 on: November 29, 2001, 07:23:00 PM »
Nice job on the copy and paste..

 Tronsky

[ 11-29-2001: Message edited by: -tronski- ]
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Offline Hangtime

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« Reply #49 on: November 29, 2001, 07:27:00 PM »
As I said... history is in the PUBLIC domain. Lynx is the guy tryin to re-write it.

Afghanistans ONLY election came at the point of a soviet gun prior to their withdrawl.
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Offline fd ski

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« Reply #50 on: November 30, 2001, 12:15:00 AM »
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Oh, horseshit. Thats spelled H O R S E meatball. The election was as rigged as every other communist 'election' conducted buy your former government..

Name Salvador Allende rings a bell ?  :)

As sad as it seems, communists ( oh excuse me, social democrats ) are willing elections fair and square democratic elections in eastern europe today.... :D

Offline straffo

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« Reply #51 on: November 30, 2001, 02:27:00 AM »
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Originally posted by fd ski:


Name Salvador Allende rings a bell ?   :)

As sad as it seems, communists ( oh excuse me, social democrats ) are willing elections fair and square democratic elections in eastern europe today....  :D


Did he heard of Greece ?
Where is Greece  :D is it the country who invented the word democratia ??

(a remnant of the 70's...)

Offline Hangtime

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« Reply #52 on: November 30, 2001, 08:06:00 AM »
.. yah, heard of greece. like the gyros. really disliked the greek demos tho.. so did socrates. Oh... and the athenian experiment failed. miserably. especially towards the end. kinda like communisim.

And besides Allende theres Diem... and many others. So whats that got to do with Lynx's fractured history story?

Social Democrats winning elections is a surprise? Hell; even france survived it. Well; alledgedly survived. Pity, that.
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Offline straffo

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« Reply #53 on: November 30, 2001, 08:15:00 AM »
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Originally posted by Hangtime:
.. yah, heard of greece. like the gyros. really disliked the greek demos tho.. so did socrates. Oh... and the athenian experiment failed. miserably. especially towards the end. kinda like communisim.

And besides Allende theres Diem... and many others. So whats that got to do with Lynx's fractured history story?

Social Democrats winning elections is a surprise? Hell; even france survived it. Well; alledgedly survived. Pity, that.

rotfl  :)
It make my day  ;) (*)

Btw I was speaking of the colonel dictature

(*) the survived part  ;)

Offline Boroda

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« Reply #54 on: November 30, 2001, 12:52:00 PM »
Whats the point? We had a REAL target for our buffs... unlike the the russian arty brigades, who simply destroyed an entire city, citizens and all.

Hangtime, AFAIU - you are a Vietnam vet. The real vet, who really fought there with an automat in hands.

Situation: your army surronded Hanoi, but the city is heavily fortified and full of armed guerillas with some heavy weapons and unknown number of civilian population that couldn't escape from the city.

What should be your army command orders? Calculate the chances for mr. Hangtime to post on an Internet BBS 30 years later in case of different command decisions.

Offline Hangtime

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« Reply #55 on: November 30, 2001, 02:25:00 PM »
A city needs food, Boroda. Oil. Supplies. A city that is belligerant and waging war needs war materials.. so you go for THAT.

If you have the city surrounded, then it's safe to say a seige mentality would ensue.

Drop leafelets.. "Anyone leaving the city unarmed will not be harmed." In short order, those civilains not being directly held by the occupying army will depart.

We blew it in Vietnam... weapons were allowed in by rail and ship. We never attacked the Russian freighters or the Chinese rail lines. We even watched the SAMS come in, get offloaded onto the Haiphong docks, tracked them to their missile sites and watched them set them up. Johnson refused to allow them to be targeted... he did not want to piss off the russians.

diddlyin bastard.

Because he forced the military to sit on it's hands and disallowed strikes aginst war material deliverys we lost HUNDREDS of aircraft and aircrews... that was a crime in my mind.

Nice exmple Boroda. Thanks for making my point for me.
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Offline Toad

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« Reply #56 on: November 30, 2001, 08:54:00 PM »
OK, been busy.. I see you guys have too!   ;)

 
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Boroda: Toad, your data about civilian casualities ether includes mostly victims of your beloved "freedom-fighters", or is a standard exaggerated hallucination of "human-rights protectors"  

Really?

Explain this one I previously posted then:

Russian Interior Minister Kulikov claimed that fewer than 20,000 civilians were killed while then-Secretary of the National Security Council Aleksandr Lebed asserted that 80,000 to 100,000 had been killed

Those are RUSSIAN estimates, Boroda. Not those dastardly "human rights protectors".

And the idea that Chechens have killed more of their own civilians than the Russians? Well they just don't have the kind of artillery capability that can shell a city for TWO MONTHS.

Your excuses are getting more fantastically unbelieveable each time you post.
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Offline Toad

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« Reply #57 on: November 30, 2001, 09:18:00 PM »
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Originally posted by -lynx-:
Toad - and they would check it exactly how?

Well, first of all, ALL the news sources would have to get together on this, right? They would have to collude. Because just about everywhere you turn (well, besides Boroda's Russian sources    :) ) you get the same story, figures all pretty close.

Secondarily, the Human Rights and Humanitarian Aid groups DO have people "on the ground" in the areas in question. They report back and guess what.. the numbers are pretty close.

So, who are you going to believe? I guess you can choose NOT to believe anyone and assume there is NO war in Chechnya at all and it's all made up.

Or you can look at reputable news sources.. and almost everyone, including BBC, says there's been large civilian losses in Chechnya and enormous amounts of Human Rights violations including torture, rape and execution.

Or you can believe the "Borodaganda" sources.    :D

   
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Now in a funny twist of fate you are getting the same crap and - guess what? - from the same sources.


Maybe it's just me, but I haven't seen the blame of this incident layed on me in the news. I haven't even seen it put on the US. What I'm reading is that the Talib prisoners violated the terms of their surrender in the most serious fashion and their NORTHERN ALLIANCE captors took them out brutally.. with US air support.

Haven't seen where any innocent civilians died. Have seen where some of the Talibs may have been killed that weren't directly involved in the revolt. Have seen where some Talibs may have been shot with their hands tied. I support an investigation into this incident to see what really DID happen.

Bottom line though, ALL the deaths are attributable to the Talibs that attacked, don't you agree? No attack, no deaths?
   
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..indiscriminate killing of POWs... Tsk-tsk-tsk - ~55 years ago in Nuremberg people hung for that.

Yes, some hung for DELIBERATE killing of POWS that had already surrendered and NONE of which WERE resisting or attacking their captors.

Say like when the Germans shot US POWS at Malmedy.

Of course, SOME folks got away cleanly after killing POWS that had already surrendered and NONE of which WERE resisting or attacking their captors.

Katyn Forest Massacre of Polish POWS by Soviets

"Katyn Forest is a wooded area near Gneizdovo village, a short distance from Smolensk in Russia where, in 1940 on Stalin's orders, the NKVD [Narodny Kommisariat Vnutrennikh Del] shot and buried over 4000 Polish service personnel that had been taken prisoner when the Soviet Union invaded Poland in September 1939 in WW2 in support of the Nazis."

Interesting Links there; LOTS of information and supporting documentation.

   
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And what is a proportionate response to a person who's hating your guts because his religion tells him to and is bent on dying and taking as many of you as he can with him?

Not talking about CIVILIANS here are you? No, you're not.

I repeat, for your and Boroda's sake, what this is all about:

"But I'll be d*mned if the same guy who was accusing the US and crying about AFGHAN civilian casualties BEFORE the air campaign even STARTED...

is going to get a "free pass" on the brutal way his country kills civilians and military enemies alike."

 
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The Russians can do no right. Period?

Deliberately twisting what I've said? I've said repeatedly that BORODA is continually slamming the US for killing civilians. His post prior to the air campaign in Afghanistan is perhaps the pre-eminent baseless accusation.

However, he WILL NOT... and apparently you have a hard time... admit that when it comes to killing civilians, the Russians are the current champions.

Neither overall good, nor bad.

[ 11-30-2001: Message edited by: Toad ]
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Offline Toad

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« Reply #58 on: November 30, 2001, 09:24:00 PM »
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Lynx: The US led coalition are extremely lucky that there was (future will tell whether for good or bad) an organised, armed and ready to fight ground force made up of teh Afgans themselves.

Yes, a fortunate thing.

However, note that the "stalemated" war between the Taliban and the Northern Alliance remained in that condition until the US removed just about every tank and heavy gun the Tallys had.

Then, with their own artillery and tanks, the NA made their move.

Do you doubt that, should we choose to have done so (or do so), we could have also removed all the NA tanks and arty?

After that, do you think that the same units that rolled up the vaunted Republican guard like a cheap rug could not have done the same to the rag-tag milita on both sides?

Unlike the British and the Russians, the US is not in Afghanistan to take and hold ground (territory). We're there to KILL the people we consider responsible for 9/11.

... and we are doing so.
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Offline Toad

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« Reply #59 on: November 30, 2001, 09:33:00 PM »
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Lynx: Russians fight dirty - Americans fight clean". I just pointed out that Americans don't actually "fight" per se as the fight is going on below under the wings of B52s unloading on Taleban positions.

Not my point AT ALL; not even when way oversimplified.

My POINT is that for BORODA to accuse the US of slaughtering civilians is absolutely laughable. Particularly so when done before the air campaign even began.

Further, for BORODA, a RUSSIAN, to shed crocidile tears over dead civilians that are still ALIVE is incredible and insulting when he TOTALLY denies the slaughter of civilians by RUSSIAN TROOPS in Chechnya.

As for your "fight dirty-fight clean" analogy, you miss there too.

The Gulf War debuted a combination of strategy that changed warfare every bit as much as the Roman short sword and legion tactics did in their day. As the English longbow and Henry's tactics did at the Battle of Crecy, ending the primacy of mounted knights.

The debut of smart weapons and the Air-Land Battle doctrine has changed warfare. It is fortunately an "improvement" (if any type of warfare can be said to be an "improvement") in that it does help to minimize civilian casualties.

The Russians are using (used) WW2 tactics and weapons in Chechnya, particularly the TWO MONTH artillery barrage in Grozny. Civilians paid a high price.

Not clean, not dirty. Just an advanced type of warfare that doesn't kill as many civilians as WW2 tactics.
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!