Screw it - Time to cleanse the world of ALL Islamic radicals

[Thrawn]

Peace guys.  I imagine that almost every nation in the world has gone about slaughtering civilians.  I know that bombers from my country participated in the firebombings of Dresden and Hamburg.  I think arguing about who kills less civilians is kinda silly.  

Not only is it silly, but hypocritical.  Is a war crime committed in the past any less horrible then one probably being committed now (as in the case of Chechnya)?  Nah.  Are the countries that we live in any better.  Probably not.  Remember, before the Holocaust, europe felt is was morally superior to most the rest of the world.  And looked what happened.  

What's more, I don't think, that any of us can be certain that the countries we live in won't commit more atrocities in the future.

[Toad]

You miss it too, Thrawn.

This isn't about killing civilians per se.

It's about a guy on an International BBS that will continually point the finger at the US for any and all reasons, as long as he can sling mud.

The most recent example was accusing the US of civilian slaughter and crying about AFGHAN civilian casualties BEFORE the air campaign even STARTED, before the FIRST BOMB had been dropped...

He's been using Iraqi Gulf War civilian casualty numbers for the same purpose that can only be found in his "sources". Those "sources" disagree with what the entire rest of the world has estimated by more than a factor of five over the "worst case" example the rest of the world uses.

Sorry, but a guy that continually slams the US using bogus numbers and "pre-war" accusations isn't going to get a "free pass" on the brutal way his country kills civilians and military enemies alike.

That's the bottom line. He can either quit slamming the US without proof/documentation or I will continue to counter with his own country's DOCUMENTED history. If he wants to wash dirty laundry in public might be best to check his shorts for skid marks first.

<Edited a non-germane remark>

[ 12-01-2001: Message edited by: Toad ]

[Boroda]

Originally posted by Hangtime:
A city needs food, Boroda. Oil. Supplies. A city that is belligerant and waging war needs war materials.. so you go for THAT.

If you have the city surrounded, then it's safe to say a seige mentality would ensue.

Drop leafelets.. "Anyone leaving the city unarmed will not be harmed." In short order, those civilains not being directly held by the occupying army will depart.

We blew it in Vietnam... weapons were allowed in by rail and ship. We never attacked the Russian freighters or the Chinese rail lines. We even watched the SAMS come in, get offloaded onto the Haiphong docks, tracked them to their missile sites and watched them set them up. Johnson refused to allow them to be targeted... he did not want to piss off the russians.

diddlyin bastard.

Because he forced the military to sit on it's hands and disallowed strikes aginst war material deliverys we lost HUNDREDS of aircraft and aircrews... that was a crime in my mind.

Nice exmple Boroda. Thanks for making my point for me.

Hangtime, they dropped leaflets and waited for two weeks for everyone to leave the city unarmed. All civilians that stayed in the city could be called hostages of the terrorists. The siege could make THEM suffer, Chechen gangsters had all equipment and supplies for a long time.

The problem in Chechnya is very similiar to what you describeed. We cannot break the supply lines from Georgia, and when we try - genatsvale Shevarnadze starts his hysteria about "souverign Georgian airspace" and accuses Russian air force of attacks on "peacefull villages". No casualities - like with that Chechens under BShU. He's so desperate protecting terrorists that he calls Gelayev "a proud and noble man"!

I hope you can understand the situation. We play all that peacefull games with terrorists only because of that "human rights" bastards who applaude to Chechens torturing Russian soldiers and say "They use tortures to make the warfare more touching and sculptured" (BTW - real words of Andrey Babitskiy, who filmed tortures organized for him specialy). If it's war - it's war. Our cause is right. The enemy will be destroyed. The victory will be ours. (quiz: who said it and when?).

Toad, the next paragraph is for you. Maybe you'll find some letters that you know there.

For the fifth time I say that I statred talking about civilian casualities to make your fellow-americans say about "inevitable casualities". You guys are wooden waist-deep. Two-moves combinations are beyound your mental capabilities. People and Party are united. Karl Marx and Friedrich Engels are two men, not four, and Slava KPSS is not a man at all.

[Toad]

Boroda...

For whatever many times.. you want to talk about civilian casualties fine.

Let's start with the ones caused by Russia.

Because the Russians currently kill more civilians during a conflict than anyone else
in the world by a HUGE margin.

Simple fact.

Go ahead.. admit that the Russians currently kill more civilians that anyone else while conducting combat operations.

Then we'll talk about your "collateral damage" complaints.

[Boroda]

Toad, here we go again. If you see the OTHER way to solve the problem - you are welcome. Send your troops and show us.

And stop this roadkill please - army operation in Chechnya was over more then a year ago. Now our special forces simply hunt terrorists.

I explained my point about "collateral damage", mr. Radio Toad.

[Toad]

We're showing you another way right now. Air/Land battle; you must have missed the beta version in Iraq. You don't need a TWO MONTH indiscriminate artillery barrage of a major city.

(...and if you think we couldn't have done it without the NA "militia", think again. It would have taken longer getting the hardware in place, but the same units that rolled up the famed "Republican Guard" are more than equal to NA "militia". Way more.)

Sorry, I have no way to control your computer output, so there's just no way I could "stop the bullsh*t". Couldn't you just unplug?

**********
Simply Hunting Terrorists

"Russian forces conducted a sweep operation of Sernovodsk on July 2, 2001 after a mine explosion killed five soldiers the previous day. They arbitrarily detained an estimated 620 villagers and internally displaced people; they seized people without regard to their identity or identity documents, which suggests that the apprehensions were not based on suspicion of specific involvement in the explosion.

Throughout the following two days in nearby Assinovskaia, federal forces swept through the village, detaining about 400 people in the same manner they had in Sernovodsk.

Several interviewed by Human Rights Watch quoted soldiers as saying they had an order to detain all males between the ages of six and sixty. In both sweeps most detainees were released later that day, but many were tortured throughout the course of the day; some were sent on to Achkoi-Martan for further questioning.

Human Rights Watch interviewed eight people who described in detail beatings and electroshock torture by federal forces seeking information about the explosions.

Among them was "Khamaz Yusupov," who described to Human Rights Watch beatings and electroshock torture to his ears, teeth, and arms. His description of electroshock was consistent with that given by several other victims. Two teenager brothers told Human Rights Watch about two days of torture in Achkoi-Martan. They described electroshock to their kidneys, mouth, and ears; one brother endured such treatment to his genitals as well. One of the teenagers also described in detail how a masked agent forced his mouth open while another filed his tooth, causing unbearable pain. A Human Rights Watch researcher viewed the injuries from the beatings the brothers had endured."
******

Just hunting terrorists, you say?   Shocking, eh?

Your point about collateral damage? LOL. The point is that in both IRAQ AND AFGHANISTAN civilians have fared FAR better than they have in Chechnya. FAR, FAR, FAR, better.

THAT'S the point...


....Despite your pre-bombing histrionics.

[Boroda]

Again the money for the fish.

HRW again. That guys appeared on the scene in the 70s, after that brilliant idea by Brzezinsky to use "human rights" as a tool of pressure against USSR. I am happy they have found another source of income after their CIA sponsor abandoned them 10 years ago. Moslim fundamentalists are more generous then their former Western masters.

If you need some more pro-terrorist propaganda - better go to www.kavkaz.org.  At least their lies are more funny.

[Toad]

Yeah, Boroda... tell us that all that stuff never happened. I'm sure the Russian troops just rounded everyone up to give them a free bouquet of flowers.

Every Human Rights Organization in the entire world is saying the SAME THING about what's happening in Chechnya.

But, of course, you have the "Borodaganda" to prove they're all wrong.

So let's see it.  

[Boroda]

Bloody maniacs from local militia are a serious threat to human rights!!!

They have beaten me so I could barely walk! I had a friendly talk with a beer-booth owner who just wanted to give me his daily cash because I am such a nice and friendly guy. That militia bastards not only have beaten me almost to death, they stole my favourite 10-inch penknife and also took my family keychain, a rare example of a chain from an "Ukraina" bike that my Granny presented on my 12th birthday!

Thanks to my cousins who did their best to release me from that inhuman militia chambers, where they were torturing me for 7 days without a single MJ cigarette! When they kidnapped me I was drunk as hell and they didn't even give me a single glass of vodka to cure my hangover next morning! What a brutal violation of my human rights!

It took my cousins 2000 bucks, 3kg of hashish and 3 lambs for local militia authorities to free me from the hands of that bastards violating my human rights! The main purpose of this letter to HRW is not to get a complete compensation for my moral and physical injuries. I only want some of the hashish back because my cousins don't let me smoke now. And how do you think I can walk at my street without a penknife and a bike chain!?

If I will get no answer from HRW - I'll write directly to the UN and maybe even to  Russian MTV top 10!

[Hangtime]

Boroda's Song

[Maverick]

Originally posted by Hangtime:
Boroda's Song

SO appropriate Hang! <S>!!
 

 

[GRUNHERZ]

Heres one to calm Boroda down, or maybe to get him wound up some more, either way the result will be good for our fun on this BBS I think......
 http://www.funet.fi/pub/culture/russian/lyrics/political/SovietUnionNationalAnthem_RedArmyChorus.mp3

 

[Hangtime]

The lyrics are almost as intelligible as the post.

Almost.  

[Boroda]

Sorry, forgot to say that mylast post was a sarcastic joke, just for Hangtime to understand it   I am a law-abiding sitizen  

Hangtime, I enjoyed a song, think I heard it somwhere on indy radio stations, still can't remember who's singing.

Grunherz, thanks for the link to the Russian national anthem. I certainly remember the old text, but, unfortunately, don't know the new words. It's something about god and our ancestors there... I'll probably learn it when someone will explain what god is mentioned there - Jesus, Allah or maybe Perun. For most of the Russians this tune is assosiated with Soviet hockey team winning world cups in 70s-80s.

To explain my last post: it's hard to protect uman rights of the people who violate out laws, and take up arms against Russian state. Yes, Russian forces do arrest innocent Chechens who's only crime is owning slaves, kidnapping foreigners and selling them at slave markets and shooting Russian soldiers and militia for fun. Could be really strange if they will only objurgate them and try to persuade them that it's not good in a free and open discussion.

To quote your president: we will fight everyone who hosts terrorists and helps them. And we DO fight them, without supporting other terrorists at the same time.

[Toad]

I know this is hard for you to understand, given your background...

but it's THE WAY you fight terrorists that many people/nations find offensive.

A TWO MONTH indiscriminate artillery barrage of a major city, for example.

It's not the fighting of terrorists.. it's the HOW of fighting terrorists.