Author Topic: Convoy ambush video (Read 2582 times)

Viking · « **Reply #60 on:** October 02, 2006, 10:03:11 AM »

The military serves the public. Civilians should always be allowed to criticize the military if they think the military is not doing its job properly. In my opinion those guardsmen failed in their duty to protect the convoy.

Angus · « **Reply #61 on:** October 02, 2006, 10:48:40 AM »

Here is one example of a gallant escort duty, although mostly unsuccessful.:
"At 03:00 Glorious was detached with the destroyers Ardent and Acasta to head for Scapa Flow at all speed, while the other carrier HMS Ark Royal and the rest of the fleet remained behind to escort the slower main convoy.
Two days earlier a force of German warships had put to sea and they spotted the carrier at 15:45 only escorted by the pair of destroyers. The powerful battlecruisers Scharnhorst and Gneisenau opened fire at 16:30 at a range of 20,000 yards, gaining direct hits on the bridge of the carrier with the third and subsequent salvoes. The carrier replied with her own gun armament, but was hopelessly outranged. By 17:20 the carrier was dead on the water, little more than a hulk, and sinking fast.
The two destroyers did their brave and suicidal best to protect their charge, but were both sunk during the next 45 minutes - but not before Acasta had launched a torpedo strike which gained a hit abreast Scharnhorst’s after turret, inflicting serious damage. "

Linkie:http://surfcity.kund.dalnet.se/gladiator_glorious.htm

Another one, - Glowworm:

"On the morning of 8 April 1940 Glowworm encountered a German naval detachment, led by the Heavy Cruiser Admiral Hipper, on its way to landing invasion troops at Trondheim as part of the German occupation of Norway (Operation Weserübung). Although hopelessly outgunned, Glowworm accepted the fight and, while receiving several heavy hits, fired torpedoes at the German cruiser. They missed, and in a final desperate effort to sink or at least seriously damage her opponent, Glowworm then attempted to ram Admiral Hipper. As the ships collided, Admiral Hipper suffered major damage to her bow. Glowworm was pushed under the cruiser's bow and her entire foreship up to the bridge was sheared off. For several minutes she drifted, on fire, alongside Admiral Hipper, then capsized and sank north-west of Trondheim. Only 31 of her crew survived."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMS_Glowworm_%28H92%29

Hawco · « **Reply #62 on:** October 02, 2006, 01:55:57 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by AquaShrimp
Convoy counter-ambush tactics:

1. Drivers attempt to drive through the killing
zone.

2. Personnel return fire immediately.

3. When vehicles are clear of the killing zone, they
are halted. Occupants dismount and take immediate
offensive action against the enemy positions.

4. Subsequent vehicles approaching the killing
zone halt short of the zone. Occupants debark and take
immediate offensive action against the enemy
positions.

-If hardened vehicles halt in the
killing zone, all available weapons are used to return
fire immediately.

-On the first perceptible slackening of enemy fire,
occupants dismount.

-After dismounting, if no cover is available, an
immediate frontal assault against the enemy is employed.

http://compass.seacadets.org/pdf/nrtc/cb2/14235_ch5.pdf#search=%22counter%20ambush%20convoy%20tactic%22

Looks great on paper, lemme tell you all something, We can all come up with "what if" sceanrios, we can all critiuque till our hearts content and say this and that and what about this or that, thing is, when contact happens, it's fast, plans go out the window, self preservation kicks in along with watching out where everyone else is so you don't get on the wrong side of your buddies fire, time you've raised your weapon, majority of the time it's over, then the air arrives, they go ahead and have a look, back up turns up and tries to police the area, then life goes on-end of story.
and I'll also tell you all this- first thing that goes through your head when you hear that someone/body got killed/ injured is "thank F&&&k it wasn't me" then straight after you have concerns for who it was.
kind of like when you nearly have a car crash and you just get out of it, you don't really dwell on it afterwards but you think about what you could have done and what you did, same thing as this.
Hawco

Hawco · « **Reply #63 on:** October 02, 2006, 02:31:14 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by cav58d
I would imagine that there is 24/7 close air support CAPing the different areas of Iraq right? it said it took 45 minutes...Shouldnt there have been some apaches/kiowas, ac130's, MC cobras or navy/air force or MC fighter bombers responding sooner?

Im not putting blame on anyone....Im just curious why it took so long

I can understand your point Cav, but you have to note that ( and I mean this in the nicest way, please don't take offence) what we are talking about is not like AH, where you can loiter around for ages using an endless supply of ground attack aircraft for cover.
also have to take into consideration the degree of seperation between Friend and foe on the deck, 20mm/30mm rounds can't tell the difference between friend and foe, they land where they are aimed, so if you have bad guys up close then the air can't just go blasting away at anything that moves on the ground.
I suspect that the route is flown over every morning/night, the crew check the route for anything that wasn't there the last time they flew over it, such as extra bushes, abandoned vehilces and anything that doesn't look right. in this case, the bad guys have good intell that they can lay an ambush with minmum time and planning, that tells me that they have confidence and can attack at will without fear of getting trapped by our guys.

Red Tail 444 · « **Reply #64 on:** October 02, 2006, 08:19:44 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by cav58d
Funked if you wanna look at it that way, then try this on for size....The primary mission was accomplished...The STATE MILITARY of IRAQ was defeated

I thought the primary mission was to locate and secure WMD...

AquaShrimp · « **Reply #65 on:** October 02, 2006, 08:26:28 PM »

Quote

Looking at it pragmatically, what is the point of an escort if they are trained to leave the escortee when the shooting starts? Seems incongruent with the definition of armed escort.

I agree.

Atoon · « **Reply #66 on:** October 03, 2006, 02:09:44 AM »

Well, I'm not trained in current military convoy transport tactics, but it seems obvious to me that the convoy leader should have been MUCH more familiar the route before he was chosen to lead so many to safety. It would seem logical(from the comfort of my living room) that this duty would be assigned to someone who had perhaps been down that road a few times before, not just reading or in this case MISreading a map.

You all have debated in great length what should have happened while they went BACK thru the kill zone, but no one has pointed out that they should never have BEEN IN the kill zone in the first place.

They made a wrong turn down a dead end road. It's fairly obvious that while they were turning around at the dead end, the kill zone was set up for their return. IMO- The responsible party here, is the C.O. that assingned the navigator who wasn't ABSOLUTELY SURE OF THE ROUTE.

If I was to be the driver of truck #5, I would expect my convoy leader knew exactly where he was going. Why else would he/she be the convoy leader?

Again, I make this evaluation from the warm comfort of my livingroom, without being fired upon, and with no military training whatsoever.

flame away if U must-

-Concho- · « **Reply #67 on:** October 03, 2006, 09:25:33 AM »

no flames just a couple of questions.

have you ever been lost in a town you've never been in?

even when you had a map?

these troops aren't super-human, they are people same as you and I, sometimes they make mistakes.

Atoon · « **Reply #68 on:** October 03, 2006, 09:36:45 AM »

That's my point, the person leading the convoy should be someone familiar with the route.

Maverick · « **Reply #69 on:** October 03, 2006, 09:43:06 AM »

You can't predrive all the routes available especially in a hot zone. If you try to do that all you do is to provide more and more ambush oportunities.

Think about it, then also think that some of the routes can be cut by the oposition to create additional ambush oportunities. It is not a sterile nor secure environment.

Mustaine · « **Reply #70 on:** October 03, 2006, 11:53:52 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by Ripsnort
The transformation is complete. From someone who understood politics to a school teacher. I'm betting you don't tip either.

Isn't it frightening to watch over all this time?

I have never seen an adult swing that much in their views / politics in my life. those unions sure are efficent at the whole brainwashing thing huh

hacksaw1 · « **Reply #71 on:** October 03, 2006, 03:38:59 PM »

Five military vehicles, twelve trucks.

My guess would be one Humvee at point, one Humvee bringing up the rear, three in the middle, one of them is between truck four and truck five.

Strikes me as very odd that the truck driver, as he was speeding down the road, was videoing away in the middle of what he called a "hellhole" and that quickly turned into a full-fledged ambush, even after the IED went off. Really strange if you ask me.

I supposed trucks that heavy can have an automatic transmission, but I still think I'd like both hands on the wheel in the middle of a firefight, long as I ain't got no weapon.

At the start of the ambush you hear very clearly on the radio "Truck One is Down." The intrepid driver five's comment is - get ready folks - "KEEP ROLLING!"

Well, well!!!

Driver five almost back-end's the Humvee, still videoing away. The Humvee has already pulled away and apparently is already passing the preceding truck ahead when driver five says his truck is not moving.

That would still appear to leave three Humvees behind truck five, along with seven trucks in the convoy. It was stated that before the ambush the convoy had to turn around because the road was a dead end, so those three Humvees and seven trucks were stuck there along with truck five.

My opinion is that the Humvee in front of truck five did exactly what he was supposed to do, exactly what driver five said to do with truck one, keep rolling.

This video supposedly was taken a year ago. Wonder why wasn't it released sooner?

I wonder why other surviving truckers weren't there at the ABC interview with this guy if the escort really abandoned the convoy.

Only other comment is that a GPS in the lead vehicle and someone who knew how to use it might have been nice!

Dago · « **Reply #72 on:** October 03, 2006, 04:07:22 PM »

Do you "he shouldnt get lost" guys realize there arent street signs on those streets, so getting lost is a very real possiblility for everyone??

Gunthr · « **Reply #73 on:** October 03, 2006, 04:22:02 PM »

certain members of this board are starting to morph into hysterical women yelling "ullulululululululululu" out the oval mesh viewing port screens of their Hijabs...

Dago · « **Reply #74 on:** October 03, 2006, 05:12:47 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Gunthr
certain members of this board are starting to morph into hysterical women yelling "ullulululululululululu" out the oval mesh viewing port screens of their Hijabs...

Sorry, I dont see it. Some dont agree with the escorts actions, some understand and defend them. Not sure what you are on about, but I dont think that comment is justified.