If you ran a stop sign

[rpm]

What would have happened if the girls ran the stop sign and killed a cop? There would be all out war to convict them and ruin their lives. That's exactly what should happen to him plus a little more because he's a cop and should know better.

[Toecutter]

Originally posted by rpm
What would have happened if the girls ran the stop sign and killed a cop? There would be all out war to convict them and ruin their lives. That's exactly what should happen to him plus a little more because he's a cop and should know better.

  Actually you are way off the mark here.  There are many instances of police officers killed in the line of duty due to motor vehicle accidents, there is one in particular that I am thinking of and the person who struck the officers was charged with a motor vehicle violation.  On the other hand a few years back a volunteer fireman in New Jersey killed an elderly couple on the way to the firehouse responding to a call.   He struck them broadside as he was going through an intersection.  I believe he was charged with a motor vehicle violation.  I dont remember an uproar calling for criminal charges against him.

[JB88]

Originally posted by Toecutter
Actually you are way off the mark here.  There are many instances of police officers killed in the line of duty due to motor vehicle accidents, there is one in particular that I am thinking of and the person who struck the officers was charged with a motor vehicle violation.  On the other hand a few years back a volunteer fireman in New Jersey killed an elderly couple on the way to the firehouse responding to a call.   He struck them broadside as he was going through an intersection.  I believe he was charged with a motor vehicle violation.  I dont remember an uproar calling for criminal charges against him.

usually when a fire engine is responding to a call they have thier lights blaring.

if this was negligence on the officers part, it should be treated in the same light as if it were a civilian.  if it was carelessness, as rpm said, he should know better.

i didnt see where it said what the status of the call was one way or the other so i dont think that it is a good thing for me to make a snap judgement being so far away from the fact, but it should most certainly be at least as circumspect a view as it would be in any situation and with anybody.

we have cops fly down our road like lightning all the time.  i get tired of complaining.  i imagine that it's bound to happen down here eventually.  

that bothers me.

[aztec]

Originally posted by Toecutter
Just to clear this up.  If in NJ,  you drive through a stop sign without stopping and hit another car and kill the people in it you can be charged with failure to stop at a stop sign.  Unless of course there are other contributing factors which caused you to fail to stop at the stop sign.  Such as DWI, or excessive speed.  If the only offense committed was the failure to stop,  then thats the only offense that the driver can be charged with.  People very rarely get arrested and charged with a crime when the only original offense is a motor vehicle violation, police officer or not.  We don't know the complete circumstances of the incident with the NJ trooper,  but I'm sure the hydrashock to the back of the head might be a little much.  

    I'm not sure we would be discussing this as much if it were someone other than a police officer involved.  I think each and everyone of us has made a mistake or broken the law when it comes to driving. Unless it turns out the the trooper was doing something so horrible as to warrant our contempt, lets leave the capital punishment for the people who actually commit crimes.  Perhaps a prayer for the girls family is in order as well.

     Dred, what crime to you think the trooper should be charged with?

Hmmm this is a tough one.....shot in the dark here but how about negligent homicide?

[Obie303]

I think that some info might be missing.  First of all, I trust half of what the papers print.  They always seem to screw up the facts.  Secondly, I wasn't there.  Who are you going to believe? And third, not to put any blame on the victims, but in order to be ejected in a side impact, were they wearing seatbelts?  It's an unfortunate accident.  Everyone is going to suffer and nobody will feel better in the end.  

Just look at the two owners of that night club in R.I.  They are responsible for 102 deaths and one gets 4 years with 2 to serve.  The other gets probation.  Innocent until proven guilty.

Just my .02

[DREDIOCK]

Originally posted by Toecutter
Just to clear this up.  If in NJ,  you drive through a stop sign without stopping and hit another car and kill the people in it you can be charged with failure to stop at a stop sign.  Unless of course there are other contributing factors which caused you to fail to stop at the stop sign.  Such as DWI, or excessive speed.  If the only offense committed was the failure to stop,  then thats the only offense that the driver can be charged with.  People very rarely get arrested and charged with a crime when the only original offense is a motor vehicle violation, police officer or not.  We don't know the complete circumstances of the incident with the NJ trooper,  but I'm sure the hydrashock to the back of the head might be a little much.  

    I'm not sure we would be discussing this as much if it were someone other than a police officer involved.  I think each and everyone of us has made a mistake or broken the law when it comes to driving. Unless it turns out the the trooper was doing something so horrible as to warrant our contempt, lets leave the capital punishment for the people who actually commit crimes.  Perhaps a prayer for the girls family is in order as well.

     Dred, what crime to you think the trooper should be charged with?

Running a stop sign, (failure to Yeild)
Reckless Driving
And at the very least
Death by Auto

thats what I and any other civilian would be charged with

As a police officer, He above all should know better.
The fact that he killed two people warrants my contempt
Just as it would if anyone else did it

[Maverick]

Lots of  interesting posts here, not many that have any merit but they are "interesting".

Arizona would handle this in this manner, I assume that it will be similar in the state this collision happened in.

Since there are fatalities involved there will be NO citations issued at the scene. The investigation will be completed to a far higher degree than that for a minor collsion to include scale diagrams, speed computations and impact velocity.

Once the investigation is over, it is likely the Officer would be arrested on charges of vehicular manslaughter or depending on factors like possible speeding or other gross negligence, second degree murder. These are NOT citable offenses as they are felonies and tickets are issued for civil infractions and misdemeanors only.

Just on the basis of what the article said and not the shrill screaching of many posters here, my guess would be second degree murder rather than manslaughter, if only because the offender was a Police Officer who would have a higher expectation of behavior behind the wheel.

[x0847Marine]

My 1st question: who here is traffic accident reconstruction trained?

The only way to determine if charges should be filed is after a thorough review of the collision report, there are too many contributing factors we don't know... and the media wont report. Was the vehicle in good working order?, posted speed?, P/F speed?, was there any unusual condition on the roadway?, time of day, weather, other vehicles / pedestrian actions, was the stop sign limit line clearly marked, was the stop sign clearly visible, what traffic control applied to the other driver, was the roadway asphalt, concrete, did it crown, if so, where and how much, corrective lenses?...on and on.

Just because he wasn't responding to a call, doesn't mean he didn't observe something, lots of activity is self generated (or pro active)

When it comes to "Emergency vehicles" & collisions, sometimes the courts allow departments to handle it "administratively", they recognzce that emergency vehicle collisions are part of doing business. While he may not get charged by a court, if he violated dept policy he could buy mass days, lose rank (pay), get fired, or otherwise be punished. On top of that he faces civil liability.

People used to always complain we took too long to get there, and of course that we're always driving too fast..

In Cal the police are technically not allowed to speed unless rolling "code 3", very few calls are assigned code 3, maybe 2%... yet *some* officers will haul-ass anyway to get there, risking all kinds of trouble. Many dept policies restrict code 3 speed to 10 mph over the prima facia speed, and thats it.

Other officers dont give a rats sphincter, if you call in your GFs being raped and its not a code 3 call, these guys will drive 25MPH if its posted, coming to complete stops, obeying every traffic law.. taking their sweet time to get there following "the rules" The only reason they'll speed if to assist a fellow officer, citizens are not worth the risk.

So pick your poison, you want the cops to get there fast, or obey every mundane traffic rule when your safety is in question.

[DREDIOCK]

Originally posted by Toecutter

    Now let me say for the record that if this guy was doing something that would elevate the the motor vehicle charge to a criminal charge (and excessive speed could do that, but it would have to be extremely excessive), then yes.  Lets have a trial and get justice for the girls family.  However, if his only violation is infact failure to stopat a stop sign, then thats what he may be charged with.  And may our prayers be with the family of the girls who died.  Unfortunately in this state, we have an over abundance of people who think like you do, so if I had to guess, my guess would be that charges will be forthcoming.

OK my opinion. Forget the reckless driving.

He ran a stop sign. Inand of itself a relitively minor offence.
But it did cause the death of two people.

The one by itself is one thing. But once it causes the death or injury of someone.
The end result is what. IMO elevates it to a criminal offence.
Reguardless of who was driving

At the very least he should be charged with Death by Auto

[DREDIOCK]

Originally posted by Obie303
I think that some info might be missing.  First of all, I trust half of what the papers print.  They always seem to screw up the facts.  Secondly, I wasn't there.  Who are you going to believe? And third, not to put any blame on the victims, but in order to be ejected in a side impact, were they wearing seatbelts?  It's an unfortunate accident.  Everyone is going to suffer and nobody will feel better in the end.  

Just look at the two owners of that night club in R.I.  They are responsible for 102 deaths and one gets 4 years with 2 to serve.  The other gets probation.  Innocent until proven guilty.

Just my .02

How about one dedicated tot eh families of law enforcement?
The Family Badge

Doesnt matter if they were wearing their seatbelts or not.
Had they not been hit they wouldnt have been ejected.

just saying

[DREDIOCK]

Originally posted by x0847Marine
My 1st question: who here is traffic accident reconstruction trained?

The only way to determine if charges should be filed is after a thorough review of the collision report, there are too many contributing factors we don't know... and the media wont report. Was the vehicle in good working order?, posted speed?, P/F speed?, was there any unusual condition on the roadway?, time of day, weather, other vehicles / pedestrian actions, was the stop sign limit line clearly marked, was the stop sign clearly visible, what traffic control applied to the other driver, was the roadway asphalt, concrete, did it crown, if so, where and how much, corrective lenses?...on and on.

Just because he wasn't responding to a call, doesn't mean he didn't observe something, lots of activity is self generated (or pro active)

When it comes to "Emergency vehicles" & collisions, sometimes the courts allow departments to handle it "administratively", they recognzce that emergency vehicle collisions are part of doing business. While he may not get charged by a court, if he violated dept policy he could buy mass days, lose rank (pay), get fired, or otherwise be punished. On top of that he faces civil liability.

People used to always complain we took too long to get there, and of course that we're always driving too fast..

In Cal the police are technically not allowed to speed unless rolling "code 3", very few calls are assigned code 3, maybe 2%... yet *some* officers will haul-ass anyway to get there, risking all kinds of trouble. Many dept policies restrict code 3 speed to 10 mph over the prima facia speed, and thats it.

Other officers dont give a rats sphincter, if you call in your GFs being raped and its not a code 3 call, these guys will drive 25MPH if its posted, coming to complete stops, obeying every traffic law.. taking their sweet time to get there following "the rules" The only reason they'll speed if to assist a fellow officer, citizens are not worth the risk.

So pick your poison, you want the cops to get there fast, or obey every mundane traffic rule when your safety is in question.

He ran a stopsign. even the police admit that.
He was on patrol and not responding to an emergany call.
Even the police admit that.

In NJ unless an officer is responding to a call they subject to and are expected by law to follow the exact same rules of the road as anyone else.

He Ran a stop sign.
Because he ran a stop sign two people died.

I dont see what other contributing factors are needed

[Speed55]

One of my friends told me this.
The only vehicle that can actually blow through stop signs and red lights is the postal truck because it's  federal.
All emergency vehicles, police, ambulances, fire trucks, ect.  must yield and get approval from other drivers before they can proceed.

I highly respect the police, but if this sweetheart was in a rush just because he had to take a dump or something and killed to innocent people, he should face some severe punishment.

[Maverick]

x0847Marine,

There is insufficient information in the article to do anything but discuss running a stop sign (or failure to yield from a stop sign) and the fact that a collision happened with 2 fatalities.

The one thing most seem to be stuck on is that there was no citation at the scene. As I already stated citations are issued for misdemeanors and civil infractions. Since there were fatalities a ticket is rather unlikely. Most likely is some form of vehicular manslaughter or second degree murder charges will be filed. I say charges as each fatality would bring it's own charge even though it's the same incident and act involved. If that Officer was issued a ticket he would likely go down and plead no contest immediately as that would prevent him from being tried for a higher charge from the same collision due to double jeopardy protections. Outside of civil rights violations that is. Those don't have double jeopardy protections.

Anything else really is just pure speculation since no one of us was there, has not been to the scene and is not privy to any of the photo's, measurements and investigation interviews.

[john9001]

i have never ran a stop sign or a red light. i have however, when appropriate exceded the speed limit.

driving is a skill, not a privilege.

[lukster]

I ran one once becasue it was somewhat hidden and I didn't see it. My wife saw it though which is the only reason I know I ran it.