Author Topic: Strange P-40 stuff  (Read 2832 times)

Offline Widewing

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Strange P-40 stuff
« Reply #30 on: October 18, 2006, 09:19:45 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Col. Flashman
Then my Flight Instructor screwed the Pooch when I was in Flight School, because he used the two of them interchangably.


I wouldn't use them interchangably... At sea level, 350 mph IAS is, essentially for a Standard Day, 350 mph TAS. But, at 12,000 feet, 350 mph IAS is actually closer to 434 mph TAS, depending upon OAT (outside air temperature) variables. An error of about 2% can exist if I use the typical .02 OAT correction factor. Actually knowing OAT would optimize the calculation.

That's the beauty of modern flight computers and the so-called glass cockpits. Modern systems sample OAT and provide very accurate TAS info.

Back during WWII, a pilot in actual air combat will not be paying much attention to instruments. He will be flying the aircraft more on feel as his full attention is outside the cockpit. That makes it virtually impossible to accurately recall speeds or altitudes. The best he can do for a debrief is provide an estimate, which could be close or far away from what actually existed.

I once asked Bob Johnson how fast he was going while chasing one particular 190 in dive. He said, "Pretty damn fast, my Thunderbolt was beginning to buffet". At the altitude he was at, the P-47 will begin buffeting right around 350 mph IAS (somewhere near 27,000 feet). Bob didn't glance at his airspeed until he was passing 10,000 feet and it showed 450 mph IAS (about 540 TAS), he began his pullout and the shaking Jug leveled out at 4,000 feet, just above a low overcast. The riddled 190 was still diving straight down when it entered the cloud cover, doubtless diving into the ground.

As a footnote; because Johnson didn't see the 190 actually crash, he claimed it as a probable. Recent analysis of Luftwaffe records shows that one 190 involved in that fight was never seen again (near Nancy) and that it was very likely that this was Johnson's victim.

My regards,

Widewing
My regards,

Widewing

YGBSM. Retired Member of Aces High Trainer Corps, Past President of the DFC, retired from flying as Tredlite.

Offline Knegel

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« Reply #31 on: October 18, 2006, 01:22:48 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Col. Flashman
Laugh it up, Fussball.

As I stated before, T.A.S. is a CALCULATED Air Speed that takes all variables into consideration for Cross Country Flying & unless I'm foregetting what an A/C Air Speed Indicator actually does, it certainly does not do those calculations for you. Especially back during W.W. II w/ what can be considered rather primitive Instruments compared to today’s.

Indicated Air Speed is just that, the I.A.S. you see on an Air Speed Indicator @ that specific moment in time w/o taking Any variables into consideration, such as Cross, Head, Tail Winds, etc., as your T.A.S. can be Faster or Slower or Anywhere in Between from what you actually see for an I.A.S. on your A.S.I..

Once again, I stated that these speeds were I.A.S., Not T.A.S., as you can not expect a Fighter Pilot to Stop to Calculate what his T.A.S. is in a Running Dogfight. They write in their reports what they SAW @ the Time being Indicated on their Instruments. The actual T.A.S. could very well have been Faster, Slower or Somewhere in Between the speed that was being Indicated @ that particular moment in time & so the I.A.S. is what was reported.

Have ever you spoken w/ Erik Shilling @ an Air Show or any where else?
Interesting conversation, wish you could have been there, lo those many years ago.
A.V.G. P-40 Pilot 1st, Fan second & you wish you could've been him.



Hi,

i did understand you,  that you did state 350mph IAS as level Vmax for the P40 is what i consider as funny. I dont wrote that you wrote 350mph TAS, that would be ok.
There is simply no way that a P40 could do 350mph IAS in a level flight, at least not for long and thats the point where your critic on the AH FM simply fail.
IAS is related to the thrust, drag etc, not to wind, thats clear and tests show very exact that 350mph IAS need a bit more power than the P40 had or a much more smal plane(Yak3 maybe).
Even the 1800hp FW190´s had problems to reach 350MPH IAS and the 1800HP Bf109 just was a bit faster. According to my datas the fasttest IAS is at sea level (at least for most planes) and here the P40´s had problems to reach 300mph IAS.
If the P40B/C in 1940/41 would have been able to reach 350mph IAS with its 1100-1200HP engine, the P51 never would have seen the light and Mr. Messerschmitt would have been executed, cause he wasnt able to make the 109F that fast with more power, a smaler airframe and smaler wingarea.

Of course i didnt talk to Mr. Schilling, but i doubt that this would bring me much forward and i dont think it make your statements regarding the Vmax more valid than official testdatas. I did talk to several german WWII pilots, and i did read many satements of WWII pilots, but like Bob Johnson, they in general dont give usable speed datas, only extreme dive speeds or cruize speeds, but they rarely state the related powersetting or the dive/climb angle.
More interesting are their impressions about the relative performence between different planes, but also here its always important, if the combat result is related to the plane performence, or pilot skill, or team skill, therefor its not that easy to take any pilot story to make conclusions, without to make researches about the exact circumstances.

Greetings,
« Last Edit: October 18, 2006, 01:32:07 PM by Knegel »

Offline Knegel

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« Reply #32 on: October 18, 2006, 01:46:36 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Col. Flashman
Then my Flight Instructor screwed the Pooch when I was in Flight School, because he used the two of them interchangably.



Hi,

i would look for a new instructor,or your instructor only fly without any wind!!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/True_airspeed

Greetings,
« Last Edit: October 18, 2006, 01:48:59 PM by Knegel »

Offline HoHun

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« Reply #33 on: October 18, 2006, 02:02:10 PM »
Hi Widewing,

>That's the beauty of modern flight computers and the so-called glass cockpits. Modern systems sample OAT and provide very accurate TAS info.

Late in WW2, the Luftwaffe jets were equipped with combined IAS/TAS indicators, the IAS part being used only for low indicated air speed, while the TAS part showed medium to high true air speed values. Apparently, it compensated automatically for differences in air density and air temperature, though with which accuracy, I don't know.

It seems these indicators were favoured by the Luftwaffe over Mach indicators, though I don't know the reason for this preference. The Mach indicators was in use, too, at least for flight testing - some years back, a Me 163 prototype cockpit shot was posted on this board, showing a Machmeter installed on the dashboard.

Post-war, Machmeters (or at least Mach limit hands on the standard airspeed indicators) have been preferred, following the practice developed by the Allies.

(The TAS indicator played an important role in Fähnrich Mutke's - mad! - claim to have broken the sonic barrier in a Me 262 near the end of the war. As he apparently did not note the altitude, his claim is pretty sorry as even if he actually reached the stated TAS figure, he might have done so at an altitude where it's equivalent to much less than Mach 1.0.)

Regards,

Henning (HoHun)

Offline Debonair

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« Reply #34 on: October 18, 2006, 02:10:23 PM »
i'm almost positive i remember read somewhere that Seafires had a crude TAS indicator that was just an ASI geared to the altimeter, or something like that <--- lol anecodtal evidence of something someone may have read a long time ago.  anyway TAS is pretty easy to figure out on your E6b whiz wheel

Offline Col. Flashman

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« Reply #35 on: October 18, 2006, 02:12:51 PM »
Not in the middle of combat its not.

Offline Col. Flashman

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« Reply #36 on: October 18, 2006, 02:47:45 PM »
That's what I get for having a 60+ year old F.I. @ the time, go figure & explains some difficulties I had on my F.T. while taking it.

Glancing @ your I.P., not studying it, especially your A.S.I. & Alt., while doing the Swivle around in the cockpit during combat, from what Boyington, Galland, Scott, etc., have stated while @ Air Show's, in thier books & during Interviews, one of things pounded into Cadet Pilot Training Program in U.S.A.A.C. (speed & alt. = survival), what I've found myself doing in Sim's is only natural after having it pounded into you.
Some flight data will stick because of the improbability of it & some will keep you flying because if you do not keep track of your I.A.S. & Alt. (speed & alt. = survival), you could be joining the Catapiller Club.

Offline hitech

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« Reply #37 on: October 18, 2006, 02:57:30 PM »
My air speed indicator also shows TAS. Not sure if any did in WWII but wouldn't be suprised if some had the setting dial to do the conversion.

HiTech

Offline Col. Flashman

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« Reply #38 on: October 18, 2006, 03:05:10 PM »
I owned A.S.I.'s out of a P-40F, P-47D & P-51B never saw any indication of a T.A.S. needle  being there, only an I.A.S. needle.
« Last Edit: October 18, 2006, 04:16:39 PM by Col. Flashman »

Offline hitech

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« Reply #39 on: October 18, 2006, 03:21:35 PM »
Either way the speed you posted can only be resonable if it is TAS. And best performace speeds are normaly shown in TAS. Infact have never seen one other wise.

HiTech

Offline Angus

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« Reply #40 on: October 18, 2006, 03:55:01 PM »
AFAIK the WW2 aircraft showed IAS and there were converion charts around for the TAS.
It was very interesting to carry out the flight trials at Rechlin with the Spitfire and the Hurricane. Both types are very simple to fly compared to our aircraft, and childishly easy to take-off and land. (Werner Mölders)

Offline Col. Flashman

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« Reply #41 on: October 18, 2006, 04:08:37 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by hitech
Either way the speed you posted can only be resonable if it is TAS. And best performace speeds are normaly shown in TAS. Infact have never seen one other wise.

HiTech


Don't know what to tell you, olde son, as I'm not making statements about what is written down in a Performance Spec Sheet issued by the Company.

If the Air Speed Indicator is only set up to give an Indicated Air Speed read out w/o a way to give a True Air Speed read out, then the speeds are just what the A.S.I. is reading @ that moment in time when the Pilot is looking @ it, an Indicated one & not a True one being measured by the Pito Static Tube.

Offline Col. Flashman

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« Reply #42 on: October 18, 2006, 04:13:25 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Angus
AFAIK the WW2 aircraft showed IAS and there were converion charts around for the TAS.


You cannot read a conversion chart while in a Combat situation while Swiveling around inside the cockpit looking for Bogies, Glancing @ your I.P., attempting to make a Kill & Jinking your A/C about so as not to be a Sitting Duck, all @ the same time. :aok

Offline hitech

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« Reply #43 on: October 18, 2006, 05:02:26 PM »
Quote
They operated best between Sea Level & 15,000', around 350mph IAS, performance started badly falling off above this A



Quote
Don't know what to tell you, olde son, as I'm not making statements about what is written down in a Performance Spec Sheet issued by the Company.


So what are you posting your research from?

Because I have no doubt that a p40 could not do 350 mph IAS in level flight.

And if almost any pilot told you it did 350 mph he would be talking TAS.
And that is based on how often I talk speeds of todays planes that a lot of us fly.

HiTech

Offline Badboy

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« Reply #44 on: October 18, 2006, 06:22:20 PM »
Anyone reading this thread who would like a quick and easy refresher on the various types of airspeed, can brush up with the following notes, and a few comments about their impact on this thread.  

Airspeed is measured by determining the difference between 2 air pressures about the aircraft. One pressure measurement is taken on the side of the aircraft, or on the side of the pitot-static tube (e.g. a small tube sticking out of the aircraft with its axis parallel to the direction of flight ), and indicates the static air pressure at your current altitude. The other pressure measurement is taken in the front, open end of the pitot tube, and indicates the total air pressure acting on your aircraft as you fly thru the air mass. The difference in these 2 measurements is indicated airspeed (IAS). Airspeed gauges are only calibrated for sea-level, standard-day atmospheric conditions. So. unless you are at sea level and the atmospheric conditions match standard day conditions, your airspeed indicator is not indicating true airspeed (TAS), ie your true speed with respect to the air mass. That's why this value is called IAS, it’s what is indicated on the airspeed gauge.

Calibrated airspeed (CAS) is IAS corrected for what is called "position error". This error is due to local airflow effects about the static measuring source. As the aircraft moves through the air, it changes the pressure field around itself. So, you don't get an accurate static pressure reading from the static source. This error is different for every aircraft type, and usually changes for each aircraft with airspeed and configuration (e.g. gear up or down) changes. Through flight test, you can determine what these position errors are, and then determine the necessary corrections to get CAS from IAS. The reason this is called CAS, is because this is what you would read if the airspeed indicator was "calibrated" perfectly, i.e. no position errors.

Equivalent airspeed (EAS) is CAS corrected for what is called "compressibility effects". As you go higher and/or faster, individual air molecules can be compressed as they come to rest inside the pitot tube. This "compressing" has the effect of causing the pressure sensor inside the pitot tube to indicate a total pressure higher than the actual value. These compressibility corrections are independent of aircraft type, and depend only on CAS and pressure altitude. They only come into play if you exceed 0.6 Mach number and/or 30,000 ft pressure altitude. The reason this is called EAS, is because this is your TAS equivalent at sea level. That means, take whatever value this is at your current altitude, Star Trek transport your aircraft to sea level, and this will be your TAS. The term is important because for a given angle of attack (AOA), an aircraft behaves the same aerodynamically (ie. it generates the same amount of lift, drag, etc.) at a given EAS regardless of altitude, discounting Mach number effects.

TAS is EAS corrected for air density at your current altitude. Air density is a function of pressure and temperature. Ground speed is TAS corrected for wind velocity.

At sea-level, standard-day atmospheric conditions (and for our purposes we can a just say sea level period, if Aces High models standard-day atmospheric conditions) all of these airspeed measurements will be equal, well except for IAS which is still dependant on those position errors, which are different for each aircraft type. An easy way to remember how their magnitudes relate to one another at higher altitudes is by using the square root symbol:



IAS and CAS are usually very close to one another. For most aircraft, usually within 10 to 20 knots or less. EAS is always less than CAS. For airspeeds of Mach 1.0 or less, the maximum difference will be 30 knots. TAS is always greater than all the other airspeeds, at altitudes above sea level.

An important note, IAS/CAS tells the pilot how the aircraft will behave regardless of what altitude he's at. The same aircraft at 200 KCAS at sea level behaves just like it does at 200 KCAS at 30,000 feet. Remember what I said about a given AOA and EAS above? IAS/CAS is very close to EAS, much closer than TAS even at moderate to low altitudes, much less high altitudes. Therefore, since the aircraft behaves the same for the same airspeed even at vastly different altitudes, this makes flying one a lot easier when referencing IAS/CAS which is why when pilots talk speed, they talk IAS/CAS and in WWII that would have just been IAS. On the other hand if you want to compare different aircraft or know which aircraft is faster you need to know their TAS and so aircraft data and performance reports are normally provided in TAS.

As a side note, because TAS is normally arrived at through corrections for position error, compressibility effects, and air density corrected to standard day atmospheric conditions, values of TAS may vary significantly from the IAS recalled by pilots flying real aircraft in non standard conditions, even when we do our own conversions. It doesn’t mean anyone is necessarily wrong, just that everyone is talking about different things.

Hope that helps…

Badboy
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