Author Topic: so long habeus corpus.  (Read 5946 times)

Offline Chairboy

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so long habeus corpus.
« Reply #255 on: October 22, 2006, 10:42:05 PM »
Mace, the old 'Islam is the debil' kitsch is getting old.
"When fascism comes to America it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross." - Sinclair Lewis

Offline Thrawn

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so long habeus corpus.
« Reply #256 on: October 22, 2006, 10:53:51 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by lukster
Blame for the bombings lies with the bombers. It's the inaction thereafter that Clinton must bear for all time.


And they inaction of Bush?

Offline Mace2004

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so long habeus corpus.
« Reply #257 on: October 22, 2006, 10:54:34 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Chairboy
Mace, the old 'Islam is the debil' kitsch is getting old.


Oh, aren't we sophisticated, we used the word "kitsch" in a sentence but have you read the Qur'an?  Maybe any of the Hadiths?  Or, do you just assume that rioting and murder because of a cartoon is normal?  How about reading something more 21st century like Mukhlas, the leader of the 2002 Bali bombings and what he had to say to other Jihadists:

You who still have a shred of faith in your hearts, have you forgotten that to kill infidels and the enemies of Islam is a deed that has a reward above no other.....Aren't you aware that the model for us all, the Prophet Muhammed and the four rightful caliphs, undertook to murder infidels as one of their primary activities, and that the Prophet waged jihad operations 77 times in the first 10 years as head of the Muslim community in Medina

Nah...these jihadists are just like us, they don't take their religion seriously.
« Last Edit: October 22, 2006, 10:58:03 PM by Mace2004 »
Mace
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Offline bsdaddict

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so long habeus corpus.
« Reply #258 on: October 22, 2006, 11:07:07 PM »
well since we're quoting dead people...

"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary
 safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."
            - Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania, 1759.

Offline Chairboy

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so long habeus corpus.
« Reply #259 on: October 22, 2006, 11:15:03 PM »
Mace, plenty of abortion clinic bombers, crusaders, and so on have used the bible to rationalize their actions, it sure doesn't damn christianity as a whole.  Why the double standard?
"When fascism comes to America it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross." - Sinclair Lewis

Offline Urchin

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so long habeus corpus.
« Reply #260 on: October 22, 2006, 11:17:54 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Toad
Salt on a raw nerve there Urchin?

I didn't allude any fault to anyone.

The response was to this bit I quoted from Shuckins:



You can unclench your hair now.


Not at all, I just find the internet confusing at times.  Who gets blamed for what often seems sort of like a capricious and arbitrary decision.  

By the way Mace, I LOL'd :).  Good response.

Offline Mace2004

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so long habeus corpus.
« Reply #261 on: October 22, 2006, 11:20:06 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by bsdaddict
well since we're quoting dead people...


He's not dead...yet.  He's been sentenced to death but you know how that goes.
Mace
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Offline Mace2004

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so long habeus corpus.
« Reply #262 on: October 22, 2006, 11:24:49 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Chairboy
Mace, plenty of abortion clinic bombers, crusaders, and so on have used the bible to rationalize their actions, it sure doesn't damn christianity as a whole.  Why the double standard?


Not a double standard at all.  Lots of people pervert religion to their own interpretation but the difference between Christianity and Islam is the source.  Find anywhere where Jesus said to kill non-believers, no he taught forgiveness and turning of the other cheek.  Muhammud sent out assassins to murder people who criticised or joked about him.  Pretty different fundamental approaches and completely different religions.
Mace
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Offline Chairboy

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so long habeus corpus.
« Reply #263 on: October 22, 2006, 11:25:54 PM »
Anyhow, Mace, can you stick to the subject?  Or do you want to threadjack this to be about religion?
"When fascism comes to America it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross." - Sinclair Lewis

Offline Mace2004

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so long habeus corpus.
« Reply #264 on: October 22, 2006, 11:30:54 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Chairboy
Anyhow, Mace, can you stick to the subject?  Or do you want to threadjack this to be about religion?


LOL, just responding to you dude.:D
Mace
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Offline lukster

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so long habeus corpus.
« Reply #265 on: October 23, 2006, 08:49:57 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Thrawn
And they inaction of Bush?


I've heard Bush blamed for a lot of things from long menstrual cycles to the price of tea in China but this is the first time I've heard him accused of inaction in regards to terrorism.


Which does create a stark contrast by which both he and Clinton will undoubtedly be compared by futture generations. Liberals don't write all of the history books.
« Last Edit: October 23, 2006, 08:55:46 AM by lukster »

Offline Urchin

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so long habeus corpus.
« Reply #266 on: October 23, 2006, 11:19:53 AM »
I believe that the "inaction of Bush" refers to before 9/11.

Offline lukster

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so long habeus corpus.
« Reply #267 on: October 23, 2006, 11:25:51 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Urchin
I believe that the "inaction of Bush" refers to before 9/11.


8 years vs 8 months, hardly comparable and when there was an attack on Bush's watch he acted.

Offline 2Slow

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so long habeus corpus.
« Reply #268 on: October 23, 2006, 12:14:16 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Mace2004
Read again the pertinent part:

(e)(1) No court, justice, or judge shall have jurisdiction to hear or consider an application for a writ of habeas corpus filed by or on behalf of an alien detained by the United States who has been determined by the United States to have been properly detained as an enemy combatant or is awaiting such determination.

Your point is well taken however.  I don't trust Hillary either but I'd be more concerned about my tax records seeing as she's shown a propensity for collecting private tax records before, and, despite the fact the records belonged to Republicans I think that even the most vociferous Democrates would not go so far as to say Republicans aren't US citizens.  Also, the collection of these tax records by the Clinton administration was demonstrably illegal in every aspect.  Doesn't appear as if the law matters one way or the other to them so what difference would it make?

Bottom line is that I'm not, and no other American citizen is an "alien" so, just by simply reading the law it clearly doesn't apply to US citizens.


or is awaiting such determination

Loophole?  How long may one be held, in secret, while ones status is "awaiting determination"?  Status being "enemy combatant" or "citizen and the law does not apply to one so you get out of jail?"

IMHO "awaiting determination"  allows the enforcers to do as they see fit.
2Slow
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Offline 2Slow

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so long habeus corpus.
« Reply #269 on: October 23, 2006, 12:58:14 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Mace2004
Three points.  
I find it kind of appalling that you don't consider Sept 11 and other acts or plans of terrorism within the US as an "invasion".

In any case, no where does the Constitution say that a Rebellion or Invasion has to be "declared".  The only mention of even a remotely relevant "declaration" regards a declaration of war.  Even so, the war powers of the President do not require such a declaration for him to act.

The law does not constitute a suspension of the writ of habeas corpus by the Congress (which is the section you quote), nor does it apply to US Citizens.  The Congress BTW, has the right to "make rules concerning captures on land or water" so they do have some say in how captives are handled while the Constitution says nothing about Judicial power in this area.  Most importantly though, the law denies the court's authority in this matter, something that is completely within the Legislature's power and reasserts the limits to Judicial power recognized by all previous Supreme Courts.  These limits are part of "checks and balances."


http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/invasion
Main Entry: in·va·sion
Pronunciation: in-'vA-zh&n
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English invasioune, from Anglo-French invasion, from Late Latin invasion-, invasio, from Latin invadere to invade
1 : an act of invading; especially : incursion of an army for conquest or plunder
2 : the incoming or spread of something usually hurtful

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Invasion
An invasion is a military action consisting of armed forces of one geopolitical entity entering territory controlled by another such entity, generally with the objective of conquering territory or altering the established government. An invasion can be the cause of a war, it can be used as a part of a larger strategy to end a war, or it can constitute an entire war in and of itself.

The term usually connotes a strategic endeavor of substantial magnitude; because the goals of an invasion are usually large-scale and long-term, large forces are needed to hold territory and protect the interests of the invading entity. Smaller and lighter tactical infiltrations are not generally considered invasions, being more often classified as skirmishes, sorties, targeted killings, assassinations or reconnaissance in force. By definition, an invasion is an attack from outside forces. As such, rebellions, civil wars, coups d'etat, and internal acts of democide or other acts of oppression are generally not considered invasions.

One could nitpick this thing to pieces.  I see no invasion here, nor rebellion.  Congress has not declared, by act of law, that an invasion has taken place and therefore it is suspending habeas corpus.  That is what I think is required.
2Slow
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