so long habeus corpus.

[Debonair]

damn, i tried to kill this thread last week, but it is still plenty alive.
  zOMG i hope it isn't after revenge!!!!11:eek:

[Mace2004]

Originally posted by 2Slow
or is awaiting such determination

Loophole?  How long may one be held, in secret, while ones status is "awaiting determination"?  Status being "enemy combatant" or "citizen and the law does not apply to one so you get out of jail?"

IMHO "awaiting determination"  allows the enforcers to do as they see fit.

Use the whole quote and deconstruct the sentence.  Selecting just five words isn't very illustrative or accurate.

(e)(1) No court, justice, or judge shall have jurisdiction to hear or consider an application for a writ of habeas corpus filed by or on behalf of an alien detained by the United States who has been determined by the United States to have been properly detained as an enemy combatant or is awaiting such determination

"Alien" is clearly written and is not qualified in any way.  The discussion of "awaiting such determination" refers to the alien's status as "an enemy combatant" not as an "alien".  It is already established that the person in question is an alien so the law doesn't apply to US citizens.  Sixth-grade english dude...maybe you should consider getting that GED after all.

Originally posted by 2Slow
I see no invasion here, nor rebellion. Congress has not declared, by act of law, that an invasion has taken place and therefore it is suspending habeas corpus. That is what I think is required.

OK, so Pearl Harbor wasn't technically an "invasion" either...ok, fine.  19 representatives of al-Qai'da enter the US and reside here for an extended period of time, capture four airliners and conduct an attack on civilians and the US Military killing 3,000 US citizens, mostly civilians but you'll rely on the Wikipedia to parse this into a non-invasion.

William Ralph Inge
It takes in reality only one to make a quarrel. It is useless for the sheep to pass resolutions in favour of vegetarianism while the wolf remains of a different opinion.

[2Slow]

An invasion is a military action consisting of armed forces of one geopolitical entity entering territory controlled by another such entity, generally with the objective of conquering territory or altering the established government. An invasion can be the cause of a war, it can be used as a part of a larger strategy to end a war, or it can constitute an entire war in and of itself.

"OK, so Pearl Harbor wasn't technically an "invasion" either"  According to the way I read it, it was.  9-11 was not because it was not conducted by the armed forces of a nation.

Perhaps we both need revisit our 6th grade english class and work on our GED's.   "Sixth-grade english dude...maybe you should consider getting that GED after all."

""Alien" is clearly written and is not qualified in any way. The discussion of "awaiting such determination" refers to the alien's status as "an enemy combatant" not as an "alien". It is already established that the person in question is an alien so the law doesn't apply to US citizens. "

I agree with you.  I was picking the whole thing apart and ignoring the sum.  However, if I (as an educated citizen) can make a mess of interpreting this, imagine what a government bureaucrat lawyer type can do with it.

H.S. graduate, B.S. Computer Information Systems.

[Yeager]

Whats does Corpeus Habus mean?

[Mace2004]

Originally posted by 2Slow

Perhaps we both need revisit our 6th grade english class and work on our GED's.   "Sixth-grade english dude...maybe you should consider getting that GED after all."

I was, you know, talking like we used to...you know, like in high school, we always used to call guys like......ah....never mind;)

[2Slow]

After diligent research (I have read the DTA and MTA cover to cover) I think habeus corpus for citizens is well intact.

Should an amendment ever be passed modifying the DTA and MTA in a fashion that the word "alien" is substituted with the word "person" then we will all be in trouble.

My very last word on the subject...

[Red Tail 444]

Originally posted by bsdaddict
and let me reiterate, to you who haven't yet seen the light and feel Bush can do no wrong...  Our next president will probably be a Democrat.  Bush and his lackeys have alienated (pun intended?) a lot of people and turned them again the GOP.  Some will vote L or another third party, some idiots who don't know there's more than two choices will vote D.  But a D will win.  Hillary, Barack or one of the others will be entrusted with the power to (appoint a tribunal who will) determine who is and who isn't an Unlawful Enemy Combatant, and hold people indefinately while the determination is made.

Think on that one for a while...

Nonsense, Hillary isin't running, and Obama isin't suicidal

[Red Tail 444]

Originally posted by JB88
it's been fun.

University of Central Florida physics professor Costas Efthimiou's work debunks pseudoscientific ideas, such as vampires and zombies, in an attempt to enhance public literacy. Not only does the public believe in such topics, but the percentages are at dangerously high level, Efthimiou told LiveScience.

Legend has it that vampires feed on human blood and once bitten a person turns into a vampire and starts feasting on the blood of others.

Efthimiou's debunking logic: On Jan 1, 1600, the human population was 536,870,911. If the first vampire came into existence that day and bit one person a month, there would have been two vampires by Feb. 1, 1600.  A month later there would have been four, and so on. In just two-and-a-half years the original human population would all have become vampires with nobody left to feed on.

If mortality rates were taken into consideration, the population would disappear much faster. Even an unrealistically high reproduction rate couldn't counteract this effect.

"In the long run, humans cannot survive under these conditions, even if our population were doubling each month," Efthimiou said. "And doubling is clearly way beyond the human capacity of reproduction."

So whatever you think you see prowling around on Oct. 31, it most certainly won't turn you into a vampire.

time to drive a friggin stake into this thread

[oboe]

Originally posted by 2Slow
After diligent research (I have read the DTA and MTA cover to cover) I think habeus corpus for citizens is well intact.

Should an amendment ever be passed modifying the DTA and MTA in a fashion that the word "alien" is substituted with the word "person" then we will all be in trouble.

My very last word on the subject...

My last word will be that the Constitution prohibits Congress from suspending the Writ of Habeas Corpus, excepting two conditions which have not been met.   The MCA is unconstitutional.

[Shuckins]

Military tribunals have been used to try enemy combatants lawful, unlawful, or status to be determined, since the founding of the republic.   Using such tribunals has meant denying those accused of a writ of habeas corpus.

Since the ruling of the Supreme Court in the case Hamdan v. Rumsfeld, Congress has passed another statue authorizing military commissions in hopes of meeting the new requirements laid down by the court.

There's no telling if the Supreme Court will accept the use of such military tribunals even though Congress now has approved them.  After all, the Court has ignored the couple of hundred years of precedent on which military commissions are based.  George Washington was the first commander to use them.

Whenever I come across the argument that such tribunals are unconstitutional, and the war on terror ought to be conducted by litigation, I think:  Madness, madness....

To borrow another phrase, this one from the Hon. Robert Jackson, late an associate justice of the U.S. Supreme Court, and one of the prosecutors in the Nuremberg Trials,  "Let's not confuse the Constitution of the United States with a suicide pact."

Can you imagine the GIs caught in the Battle of the Bulge having to supply every German prisoner they took with a lawyer to file a writ of habeas corpus on his behalf - including those unlawful combatants caught in U.S. Army uniforms, the better to confuse and misdirect American forces.  Yep, that's just what the laws of warfare need:  another incentive to take no prisoners.

(Paraphrased from an article by Paul Greenberg in the Arkansas Democrat-Gazette.)

[Chairboy]

Make up your mind, are they POWs then?  Because if they are, then the Geneva convention applies.  That's the specific example you just gave, after all.

[lukster]

Originally posted by Chairboy
Make up your mind, are they POWs then?  Because if they are, then the Geneva convention applies.  That's the specific example you just gave, after all.

As has been said, they don't fit the GC description of POWs but do fit the GC description of spies. Unless we want to shoot them all as spies we need new guidelines.

[Debonair]

they cant be spies, they dont drink martinis or play rotisserie league baseball

[x0847Marine]

Originally posted by Eagler
yes, it must be happening daily or otherwise we wouldn't be seeing these poor souls paraded in front of your tele during the evening news by the bush hating - we start for nothing, and have zero plans for anything, but looky at this scandal - dumbarsecrats .. yeah, I must see half a dozen a week .. how many do you know of? pls don't count the losers they snagged out of afganhastan or Iraq and are now rotting in gitmo as I can't feel anything for them ...

Spirit of the law vs letter of the law is a stale argument, if you haven't seen how lawyers ignore the spirit of a law while adhering to the letter.. you haven't been paying attention.

The spirit of this is to punish a few dozen real bad dudes that most of us would rather see summarily executed, great. But as written, the "letter of the law", gives powers to creative & clever prosecutors who can and will use this law whenever it suits them. Chances are this BS isn't going to affect me, my friends or anyone I know, so frankly I could really care less who the idiots sweep off the street and torture..

After 10+ years of being "the man", countless trials, court appearances and interaction with state & federal (military as well) prosecutors.. experience has taught me you cant trust these people to apply the law for its purpose. I cant even tell you how many times I left a DAs office amazed at how they manipulate some laws in ways the people who wrote it never imagined. It happenes every day too.

I have to laugh when people rally around the spirit of a law, its almost like you assume those in charge will be responsible all the time, and they will ONLY use the law to reflect the Spirit... but they dont, they'll use in how they want, when they want, on who they want.

[Viking]

Originally posted by x0847Marine
Chances are this BS isn't going to affect me, my friends or anyone I know, so frankly I could really care less who the idiots sweep off the street and torture..

First they came for the Jews
and I did not speak out
because I was not a Jew.
Then they came for the Communists
and I did not speak out
because I was not a Communist.
Then they came for the trade unionists
and I did not speak out
because I was not a trade unionist.
Then they came for me
and there was no one left
to speak out for me.


Pastor Martin Niemöller