Author Topic: What's Up With Takeoff Trim?  (Read 1226 times)

Offline Stoney74

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1439
What's Up With Takeoff Trim?
« on: October 19, 2006, 10:15:41 PM »
Ok, recently graduated to flying without combat trim.

I've got a pilots license, so I understand the dynamics of it in real life, but...

"Elevator trim, neutral...aileron trim, neutral...rudder trim in the takeoff position...A little rudder trim will counteract the torque affect on takeoff..."

--P-47N Pilot Operating Handbook--

Once I hit the runway using manual takeoff, I readjust my trim settings to reflect the above statement (using a guesstimate on "t/o position" for the rudder trim).  Plane behaves like a banshee on takeoff, dropping the left wing hard as I rotate.  Is this realistic or are we doomed to a cross controlled / uncoordinated takeoff in AH? (This in a 50% internal and a centerline drop setup).

I've noticed that the auto-takeoff trim sets the plane up for a highly uncoordinated takeoff.  So much so, that the trim tabs cannot actually compensate for a really heavy takeoff.  The nose drifts to the right of the runway (?) as I approach the departure end of the runway.

Is this a flight model issue?
« Last Edit: October 19, 2006, 10:20:06 PM by Stoney74 »

Offline Max

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 7814
What's Up With Takeoff Trim?
« Reply #1 on: October 20, 2006, 08:22:01 AM »
Can't say as I've ever noticed what you're describing in terms of auto-takeoff, which has been set as default for 5+ years.

Are you using stall limiter?

Offline Ack-Ack

  • Radioactive Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 25260
      • FlameWarriors
What's Up With Takeoff Trim?
« Reply #2 on: October 20, 2006, 08:25:39 AM »
If you have auto-take off enabled and at any time while on the runway engage the wheel brakes the plane will yaw as it goes down the runway until it lifts off.


ack-ack
"If Jesus came back as an airplane, he would be a P-38." - WW2 P-38 pilot
Elite Top Aces +1 Mexican Official Squadron Song

Offline Stoney74

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1439
What's Up With Takeoff Trim?
« Reply #3 on: October 20, 2006, 08:40:50 AM »
No stall limiter

No brakes before takeoff

But, why must I cross-control to keep it on the runway?  Why does the auto-takeoff cross control to takeoff?

Offline Gooss

  • Nickel Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 602
      • http://www.327th.com
What's Up With Takeoff Trim?
« Reply #4 on: October 20, 2006, 04:20:26 PM »
You said even auto takeoff is a problem.  I just tried it in a P47N with 75% fuel and 2500# bombs.  Take off was smooth and in trim when I took over the controls.

Without auto takeoff, nothing crazy happened.  I used a little rudder input as I started down the runway but the wing didn't try to dig in.

Are you having the problem with other planes?  Maybe it's a stick problem?

HONK!
Gooss
HONK!
Gooss

CHICKS DIG GULLWINGS
flying and dying since Tour 19

Offline Stoney74

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1439
What's Up With Takeoff Trim?
« Reply #5 on: October 20, 2006, 04:48:18 PM »
I'll go back and do some more testing to get exact conditions of flight.  I'll re-calibrate, load up a heavy P-47N and come back with more specific examples.  I'll also use some different aircraft.

I guess I should have set this thread up a little better from the beginning...

Offline Benny Moore

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1439
What's Up With Takeoff Trim?
« Reply #6 on: October 21, 2006, 11:28:07 PM »
I've got a couple of hours in a real airplane.  The problem with trim in simulators is that they don't affect your physical gaming joysick, only your virtual stick.  Because of this, there will be a lot of wobble if your plane isn't perfectly trimmed at all times (unlike in real life, where the only wobble is your muscles getting tired), and doing this is impossible to do with the kind of tiny plastic controls we have.  Then, too, the actual gaming joystick, regardless of brand, is a lot less precise than the real thing, as are gaming pedals and throttles.  All in all, if you're using direct input instead of a curve (as I do for better control near the stall), you're doomed to wobble.

Offline Stoney74

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1439
What's Up With Takeoff Trim?
« Reply #7 on: October 22, 2006, 01:47:01 AM »
I got some screenshots that I took that I can't post here.  Anyway, on auto takeoff, rudder trim is all the way to the left, aileron trim is all the way right.  I noticed in the Spits, both rudder and aileron trim are set to the left.

I guess a better question would be why does the plane take off cross-coordinated on auto-takeoff....

Offline bozon

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 6037
Re: What's Up With Takeoff Trim?
« Reply #8 on: October 22, 2006, 05:25:15 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Stoney74
...
I've noticed that the auto-takeoff trim sets the plane up for a highly uncoordinated takeoff.
 

If auto-takeoff makes your nose point into the wind this IS coordinated flight regardless of trim tab position. Coordinated flight does not mean that your rudder is centered - usually the opposite.
Mosquito VI - twice the spitfire, four times the ENY.

Click!>> "So, you want to fly the wooden wonder" - <<click!
the almost incomplete and not entirely inaccurate guide to the AH Mosquito.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RGOWswdzGQs

Offline Schatzi

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 5729
      • http://www.slowcat.de
What's Up With Takeoff Trim?
« Reply #9 on: October 22, 2006, 06:17:41 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Stoney74
I got some screenshots that I took that I can't post here.  Anyway, on auto takeoff, rudder trim is all the way to the left, aileron trim is all the way right.  I noticed in the Spits, both rudder and aileron trim are set to the left.

I guess a better question would be why does the plane take off cross-coordinated on auto-takeoff....



Try http://www.picturehangar.com for hosting the pics.
21 is only half the truth.

Offline Ack-Ack

  • Radioactive Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 25260
      • FlameWarriors
What's Up With Takeoff Trim?
« Reply #10 on: October 22, 2006, 08:25:49 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Benny Moore
I've got a couple of hours in a real airplane.  The problem with trim in simulators is that they don't affect your physical gaming joysick, only your virtual stick.  


That's why Windows and Aces High have their calibration routines.  As long as your joystick is properly calibrated there is no need to adjust the trim adjustments on the stick itself.  

As for the auto-take off problem that was described, it's been like that ever since I can remember when I first started during v1.07.  It's a bug and nothing else.


ack-ack
"If Jesus came back as an airplane, he would be a P-38." - WW2 P-38 pilot
Elite Top Aces +1 Mexican Official Squadron Song

Offline Rolex

  • AH Training Corps
  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3285
What's Up With Takeoff Trim?
« Reply #11 on: October 22, 2006, 08:54:09 AM »
Stoney: Can I recommend some searching on the BBS before the topic goes too far?

Here is a start: http://www.hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=5848&highlight=combat+trim

Offline Stoney74

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1439
What's Up With Takeoff Trim?
« Reply #12 on: October 22, 2006, 11:40:43 AM »
Thanks for the responses.  Rolex I did read that, and it all makes sense, but...

My question is basically that if a plane is taking off in a cross-coordinated condition, the takeoff roll is going to be much longer than it needs to be.  I just don't understand why you would put in all that right aileron trim and then have to counteract it with LEFT rudder trim on takeoff.

http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/1039_1161535493_p47ntakeoff1.jpg
http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/1039_1161535522_p47ntakeoff2.jpg
« Last Edit: October 22, 2006, 11:46:56 AM by Stoney74 »

Offline Golfer

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 6314
What's Up With Takeoff Trim?
« Reply #13 on: October 22, 2006, 01:19:54 PM »
Stoney ever think what would happen if you took that same heavy P-47 in real life...

went right to full throttle...

well beyond that there's not much to say.  You'd be more than "the man" if you kept it on the runway long enough to get flying.

Offline Benny Moore

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1439
What's Up With Takeoff Trim?
« Reply #14 on: October 22, 2006, 08:44:46 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Ack-Ack
That's why Windows and Aces High have their calibration routines.  As long as your joystick is properly calibrated there is no need to adjust the trim adjustments on the stick itself.  


You mean with auto-trim on, or off?