Author Topic: 89 year old, guilty on 10 counts of vehiclular manslaughter  (Read 720 times)

Offline megadud

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89 year old, guilty on 10 counts of vehiclular manslaughter
« Reply #15 on: October 20, 2006, 07:00:13 PM »
i have said it all along old people shouldn't drive. 60 you stop.

Offline J_A_B

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89 year old, guilty on 10 counts of vehiclular manslaughter
« Reply #16 on: October 20, 2006, 07:00:35 PM »
The law (at least Ohio law) pretty clearly indicates that lack of intent doesn't mean no crime was committed.  There are 4 levels of culpability.  In order of severity, they go as follows:  Purposely (aka intentionally), Knowingly, Recklessly, and Negligently.

There's no such thing as a "car accident".  It doesn't exist.  Unintentionally ramming another car is still a crime.  Unintentionally killing ten people is definately a crime!  

Most courts won't send an 89 year old man to jail.  They'll figure out a fitting way to punish him.  Most likely they'll strip him of his license and he'll wind up in a nursing facility--which is basically the same as jail anyway.

If the BMV followed their proper procedure, then they did nothing negligent.  You're judging them based on hindsight.

J_A_B

Offline 1895

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89 year old, guilty on 10 counts of vehiclular manslaughter
« Reply #17 on: October 20, 2006, 07:07:39 PM »
Considering his age and actions jail is a bit harsh for an old man most likely he will die *giggles*. Maybe a recovery center or psychological center? Cause he must have done it for a reason

Offline megadud

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89 year old, guilty on 10 counts of vehiclular manslaughter
« Reply #18 on: October 20, 2006, 07:10:45 PM »
jail is the right thing if your not for "DuDs - You get what you give" Law.

I think he should be hit by a car. punishment should = the crime.

Offline Neubob

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89 year old, guilty on 10 counts of vehiclular manslaughter
« Reply #19 on: October 20, 2006, 07:50:47 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by J_A_B
The law (at least Ohio law) pretty clearly indicates that lack of intent doesn't mean no crime was committed.  There are 4 levels of culpability.  In order of severity, they go as follows:  Purposely (aka intentionally), Knowingly, Recklessly, and Negligently.

There's no such thing as a "car accident".  It doesn't exist.  Unintentionally ramming another car is still a crime.  Unintentionally killing ten people is definately a crime!  

Most courts won't send an 89 year old man to jail.  They'll figure out a fitting way to punish him.  Most likely they'll strip him of his license and he'll wind up in a nursing facility--which is basically the same as jail anyway.

If the BMV followed their proper procedure, then they did nothing negligent.  You're judging them based on hindsight.

J_A_B


I think that those 4 levels of culpability apply everywhere in the states.  There is a 5th, when there is no culpability, which is legally rare because you can almost always find fault somewhere. One example that has legal precedent is when somebody with an undiagnosed heart problem passes out or dies behind the wheel and hurts or kills somebody else...I digress...

I think that the DMV's procedure is improper by design. They may well have licensed him according to policy, but, clearly, they do this to many people who are, for one reason or another, not fit to drive. I've had a CA license before. I've taken their tests. Not the finest of filters, as far as weeding out potentially dangerous drivers.

Offline Neubob

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89 year old, guilty on 10 counts of vehiclular manslaughter
« Reply #20 on: October 20, 2006, 07:54:28 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by megadud
jail is the right thing if your not for "DuDs - You get what you give" Law.

I think he should be hit by a car. punishment should = the crime.


If you want to stick to that theory, MegaDud, you'd have to hit him 10 times over, inducing death each time, and another 70, inducing varying degrees of injury.

Personally, I vote for forcing him to watch every episode of the OC, back to back, but that's just me.

Offline lasersailor184

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89 year old, guilty on 10 counts of vehiclular manslaughter
« Reply #21 on: October 20, 2006, 08:59:45 PM »
I see nothing wrong with old people driving.  It's just that since they are more prone to losing their abilities, they should be tested more frequently.

At least once a year.  And to placate them a little, they'll have their own section in the DMV, so they don't get held up and don't hold us up in the regular DMV driver's license section.
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Offline Shamus

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89 year old, guilty on 10 counts of vehiclular manslaughter
« Reply #22 on: October 20, 2006, 09:10:22 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by lasersailor184
I see nothing wrong with old people driving.  It's just that since they are more prone to losing their abilities, they should be tested more frequently.

At least once a year.  And to placate them a little, they'll have their own section in the DMV, so they don't get held up and don't hold us up in the regular DMV driver's license section.


Good idea.

Here in Michigan we not too long ago we passed a law resticting licenses for 16-18 year olds, cant dive during certain hours, no other kids in the car etc.

I asked a state rep why we dont require reaction testing for the elderly and he told me that the elderly vote, 16-18 year olds dont.

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Offline nirvana

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89 year old, guilty on 10 counts of vehiclular manslaughter
« Reply #23 on: October 20, 2006, 09:53:56 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by megadud
jail is the right thing if your not for "DuDs - You get what you give" Law.

I think he should be hit by a car. punishment should = the crime.


Indubitably, same thing I thought for Tookie, kill him 3 timeds over, but that's another story.  I'm going to side with Krypto because at 89, you probably don't have much life left in you.  Strip his life and put him in an assisted living home, or with family.
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Offline Maverick

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89 year old, guilty on 10 counts of vehiclular manslaughter
« Reply #24 on: October 20, 2006, 11:58:58 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by sluggish
It's funny that in the other thread about the cop who ran a stop sign and killed two people the consensus was on the fence as to whether he should do time or not.  Doesn't anyone think these two incidents are related in any way?



Apparently in your mind they are. It's not the case here though in reality.

In the case here the guy has been convicted. He has had a trial. A full investigation has been completed and the evidence was brought to the court where a jury heard it and rendered a verdict.

None of that was present in the situation of the thread you are alluding to.

As to his doing time, sure why shouldn't he serve time? He's been convicted of a crime that does not require mens rea. Just because he didn't mean to does not mean he should not face the penalty for the act and his age is not an excuse or get out of jail free situation.

As to the issue of drivers license holders and age, think hard about linking specific ages to licenses. Think also about the age of drivers involved on the collisions. If you do a direct corollary you may not like the result.

BTW who were you before you got banned?
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Offline Sixpence

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89 year old, guilty on 10 counts of vehiclular manslaughter
« Reply #25 on: October 21, 2006, 12:42:25 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by J_A_B
Some of you apparently don't realize that, for many seniors, taking away their driver's license amounts to little better than a death sentence.


And if you don't you give the death sentence to someone else, as in this case.

This reminds me of an everybody loves raymond episode. His father is the worst driver and has to get his license renewed and has to take a driving test to do it. He passes and Ray's wife is in shock(thinking he would never pass), it was freakin hilarious.
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Offline lazs2

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89 year old, guilty on 10 counts of vehiclular manslaughter
« Reply #26 on: October 21, 2006, 10:14:06 AM »
I don't really see the problem... he was legaly licenced so there is no way age should be considered.

He was grossly negligent and guilty of several counts of reckless driving resulting in manslaughter.

Unless you could prove he planned to do it.  then it is murder.

One death or ten... you were reckless or negligent it is manslaughter.

I have allways wondered how long it would take for the nutcases to figure out that they can do more damage with a car than a gun.

lazs

Offline sluggish

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89 year old, guilty on 10 counts of vehiclular manslaughter
« Reply #27 on: October 21, 2006, 10:19:52 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Maverick
Apparently in your mind they are. It's not the case here though in reality.

In the case here the guy has been convicted. He has had a trial. A full investigation has been completed and the evidence was brought to the court where a jury heard it and rendered a verdict.

None of that was present in the situation of the thread you are alluding to.

As to his doing time, sure why shouldn't he serve time? He's been convicted of a crime that does not require mens rea. Just because he didn't mean to does not mean he should not face the penalty for the act and his age is not an excuse or get out of jail free situation.

As to the issue of drivers license holders and age, think hard about linking specific ages to licenses. Think also about the age of drivers involved on the collisions. If you do a direct corollary you may not like the result.

BTW who were you before you got banned?


I think you took my statement all wrong.  All I'm saying is that in the case of the cop, a lot of people were saying all he did was miss a stop sign and no crime was committed.  In this case all the guy did was confuse the gas and brake pedal and he's a murderer.  I wonder (I could go back and match up the posts to the posters but I'm too lazy) how many of the people who said the cop only ran a stop sign are saying "string the old man up" and how many people who want to execute the cop think they should just leave the poor old man aloneā€¦

My own opinion is that the old man should do time and the only injustice in that is that he probably doesn't have enough years left to properly pay his debt, and that if no criminal charges are brought against the cop then a lot of people's suspicions about cops being above the law are correct.

A few years back (Clinton was prez so it was a least 7 or 8) the prez was in town and his motorcade caused a huge traffic back-up on the e-way.  A semi-truck driver didn't see the jam and plowed into it and killed a bunch of people (I can't remember an exact number).  He was convicted on X counts of Vehicular Manslaughter and most likely will spend most of the rest of his life in prison all because he was daydreaming and didn't see the stopped traffic in front of him.

Of these three incidences the two involving civilians are consistent and most people would agree that the outcome is just.  Why would people argue that a cop who ran a stop sign and killed two people is only guilty of failing to stop?

As far as age and license testing goes, my point is that at least in Michigan, a person can go for as long as ten years without having any kind of test at all.  A LOT of things can happen to a person in ten years.  Perhaps changing laws for elderly people is the wrong approach.  Maybe what should be done is to expand a doctor's Hippocratic Oath to include the duty to inform the proper authorities when a person is not mentally or physically sound to operate a motor vehicle.

Offline megadud

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89 year old, guilty on 10 counts of vehiclular manslaughter
« Reply #28 on: October 21, 2006, 01:33:47 PM »
I still think 60 or over no driving. And the punishment should equal the crime. So if he killed people drving, he should be killed with a car.

There should be a strike rule if it is an "accident" 2 strikes your out. kill someone twice by accident then you die. people would think twice about killing people knowing they will die instead of spending a long time in a prison.

the murderers would slowing but surely disappear.

just a thought :)

Offline LePaul

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89 year old, guilty on 10 counts of vehiclular manslaughter
« Reply #29 on: October 21, 2006, 01:40:35 PM »
If this man was denied a job due to his age, we'd be hearing about age discrimination.

This man mowed over a bunch of people, showed no remorse and told multiple witnesses "Why didnt you get out of my way?"

I dont think the prison system should show any age discrimination.  What he did is criminal and he oughta get the death penalty.  

This whole "aw, poor old idiot didnt know better" doesnt cut it for me.

If he showed any kind of remorse, I might feel different.  But he hasnt.