Author Topic: The $800 CD  (Read 2217 times)

Offline Rolex

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The $800 CD
« Reply #60 on: October 25, 2006, 07:10:38 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by ByeBye
The master is better than the glass CD.

Quote
Originally posted by ByeBye
By the way, all CDs are mastered from glass masters.


tick, tick, tick...

I'll bet it still isn't sinking into your brain yet, is it?

Cheers,
Your friend, Rolex.

Offline MrRiplEy[H]

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The $800 CD
« Reply #61 on: October 25, 2006, 08:55:40 AM »
Only problem is that a digital master is identical to the copy. :rolleyes:
Definiteness of purpose is the starting point of all achievement. –W. Clement Stone

Offline mietla

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The $800 CD
« Reply #62 on: October 25, 2006, 11:21:03 AM »
I always thought that the master was analog in order to preserve everything in the original

Offline Black Sheep

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The $800 CD
« Reply #63 on: October 25, 2006, 05:37:29 PM »
Back in the day, and still today - some will master specifically to 1 inch or 2 inch tape - When you buy a CD, you see a 3 letter form where A is analog and D is digital:

ADA
AAD
DAA
ADD

First is recording, second is mixing, third is mastering.

Digital mediums are hard disk based(Pro Tools, Logic, RADAR)
Analog refers to reel to reel tape, usually 2 inch.

It hardly ever stays digital in the mixing process - they are using an analog board or a summing mixer to warm the signal and return it back to hard disk.

99% of every record now will see some digital path, even if it is to edit.

Some producers or bands will stick with the same formula for sonic continuity.

Nowadays, digital seems to be getting warmer, but analogue will never be replaced.

As far as mastering goes, it will eventually go to a CD Redbook format, or a 24bit audio file stored for duplication. The glass master is the die for duplication machines, both sonically and sometimes visually for the print.
There is no difference between a glass master and a file stored on a hard disk so far as sonic quality goes.

Offline ByeBye

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The $800 CD
« Reply #64 on: October 25, 2006, 06:21:46 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Black Sheep
As far as mastering goes, it will eventually go to a CD Redbook format, or a 24bit audio file stored for duplication. The glass master is the die for duplication machines, both sonically and sometimes visually for the print.
There is no difference between a glass master and a file stored on a hard disk so far as sonic quality goes.


What I was trying to get out of Rolex was the type of format that his glass CD was. If his glass CD was only a 16 bit redbook CD,  then the original master recording was most likely superior in sound and the $800.00 glass CD sort of pointless.

Offline Black Sheep

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The $800 CD
« Reply #65 on: October 25, 2006, 10:36:51 PM »
well that is basically true - it IS sort of redundant - but since hard drives can get wiped, there are always at least 10 Masters filed or floating around for security.

What he may be referring to is a 24 bit Master with a very high sample rate for accuracy. Only a few players will play them without having to dither and resample.

Offline Rolex

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The $800 CD
« Reply #66 on: October 26, 2006, 06:59:06 PM »
Well, I apologize. I overestimated just how much Nuke and others know about how CDs work at the hardware level. You're looking at it from a higher level, like Newtonian physics vs. quantum mechanics.

Transferring anything, digital or analog, to another media is never perfect, and reading it is never perfect. With CDs, we're talking about transfering the data to a media using a geometric shape and the mechanical manufacturing transfer process is not error free. It's not like copying non-audio data machine to machine.

The glass master is used to make a metal stamper to press CDs. The glass master is not a perfect reproduction, but close enough. Yes, it too has errors, but the analog result is imperceptable to the human ear - they happen too fast. However, every step down the chain will introduce more imperfections.

Those CDs are read by analog mechanisms and digitized by gating. The raw error rate is surprisingly high and both encoding and error correction are used on all CDs to bring it to a manageable level. A data disc has an extra layer of error correcting code (ECC) which uses about 13% of the space; that is not used for audio, so the player provides error concealment or suppression circuitry to reduce the effects of misreading.

Audio CDs are read at 1x speed, so there isn't any time to go back and check if that 0 was really a zero, or the 1 was really a one, like is done on data discs. If you have a lot of things looking like 0.1 or 0.2, or 0.9 or 0.8, it's manageable. But when you get things looking like 0.4 or 0.6 hundreds of times during that unique read, those are hidden from you and massaged at the analog stage so you won't notice them much. But they are there.

A fast-spinning disc being read by a moving laser will always exhibit read errors. They are common and frequent on pressed and non-pressed CDs. Gaussian effect increases the read errors and it should be obvious that greater material clarity of the suface will reduce read errors since brightness and darkness across the read path is wider.

When you extract digital data through DAE or in raw form from a CD or VCD, stuff happens. All things being equal (format), the faster you run DAE, the greater the number of ticks and pops - bit errors - you will encounter.

If you think all subsequent digital copies are exact, then try making copies of copies of copies of CD-Rs on different drives with different writing software. In theory, it's just zeros and ones, right? The data will be there, no doubt. But in practice, the reading errors of that data at 1x speed will compound until degradation is evident to the ear as a reduction of sound brilliance.

For example, here are differences at the analog line output between a pressed CD and a CD-R. This data is directly from the redbook people - Philips. They should be the same, if digital is digital, right?

Line Out    

Amplitude Linearity
On pressed CD: 1.5 dB (20 Hz - 20 kHz)
recordable CD: 2.5 dB (20 Hz - 16 kHz)

       
S/N-ratio
On pressed CD: 81 dB (84 dB A-wtg)
recordable CD: 80 dB (82 dB A-wtg)

        
Total Harmonic Distortion + Noise
On pressed CD: 65 dB (1kHz)
recordable CD: 55 dB (1kHz)

        
Channel separation min.
On pressed CD: 70 dB (20 kHz) min.
recordable CD: 65 dB (16 kHz)

Those numbers are pretty good, but why don't they match? Why is CD-R playback inferior to that from a pressed disc if digital copying is exact?

Well, How about errors during data impression to imperfect media?

A glass CD, manufactured with fewer errors than an industry-standard pressed CD, will have less error correction being performed by the variety of drives out there and provide better archival quality of the data for subsequent copying.

I'm done. For those who are so darn sure I'm spouting nonsense, perhaps you don't know enough to even know the difference?

Cheers

Offline ByeBye

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The $800 CD
« Reply #67 on: October 26, 2006, 07:17:24 PM »
Rolex, you never answered anything specific or even posted a link about that particular glass CD that you had an orgasm over.

All I was saying....in fact asking was: is that glass cd that you posted about just a regular 16 bit, 44.1 kHz recording ?

I was also pointing out that a glass scratches and when that cd scratches, it will have errors too.

You said that it would not suffer from dregation of the surface materials, not have read errors resulting from surface degregatiopn, that it contained sound that was closer to live than anything that ever existed and that it would remain that way forever. None of that is true.
« Last Edit: October 26, 2006, 07:21:12 PM by ByeBye »

Offline leitwolf

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The $800 CD
« Reply #68 on: October 26, 2006, 07:39:46 PM »
Rolex, in a way, you're right. A CD player reading from your glass master will have an easier time to extract data from it, with fewer cases of the error correction kicking in. The signal from the laser is still analog at this point and mechanical (bits on a CD are just holes, after all) quality of CD manfucaturing plays an important role.

Noone refutes that using CD-Rs to write stuff on wont produce such a pristine analog "signal" on the resulting cd copy. If you keep copying over the same data from cd-r to cd-r, eventually, even an error might remain undetected and subsequent copies have a flipped bit stored to them.

But the point is that if you use a harddisk to store the CD image, and make a CD-R copy every now and then when your currenct copy is worn out, it would be sufficient to produce a readout which matches the original CD 1:1.

The difference is, eventually, even your master will be worn out.
Copying data in digital systems, however, have a significant smaller chance to accidentally flip a bit during that process than any analog system - even if it has a better signal quality to begin with.
Every single transistor in computer systems regenerates the signal. As long as the signal is adequate on the input side you receive a fresh signal as output.

For most of it's service life, the signal quality of a CD-R is "good enough" to still deliver an exact digital copy.

You're talking hardware, we're talking software here :)
veni, vidi, vulchi.

Offline MrRiplEy[H]

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The $800 CD
« Reply #69 on: October 28, 2006, 06:07:53 AM »
Yeah what the industry really needs is a totally revamped digital audio standard, not 16-bit pcm cd's made expensively from glass.

But I'm sure RIAA is rubbing its hands together looking at the concept - if some moron will pay $100 for massproduced glass cd they can keep on selling the same old crap and get 80% more profit over it. :aok

Which of the following samples do you think comes from cd and which dvd-audio?





And how much better would the cd sine wave look coming from a glass cd?
« Last Edit: October 28, 2006, 06:12:23 AM by MrRiplEy[H] »
Definiteness of purpose is the starting point of all achievement. –W. Clement Stone