analog trim

[HomeBoy]

I'm looking for comments from anyone who uses analog trim.

I have recently converted completely to using analog trim since modifying my controllers to include a "pinky wheel" on my Pro Throttle which I use for elevator trim plus two other wheels for rudder and aileron trim.  For ten years, I have used combat trim pretty much 100% of the time; even after reading Lephturn's excellent article on how to use trim effectively in Aces High some years ago.  I am now about a month into analog trim and though at first, it was a real struggle, I am getting quite comfortable with pretty much keeping my little finger on the trim wheel and making slight adjustments during flight; even while dogfighting.  I feel my control of the airplane has increased dramatically.  At first, I was trying to mix combat trim in with analog trim and finally just quit using CT all together.  I'm getting good enough now that I don't even use auto-pilot trim that much either as I am able to trim well enough that my plane will maintain my desired attitude fairly well.

The reason I'm posting this is I'd love to hear from folks who have already traversed the path I'm blazing.   I welcome any tips or techniques you have developed, etc.   Problem is for me, I'm the only one I know personally who uses analog trim.  All the guys in my squad (as far as I know) use keyboard trim.  People who have not used analog trim do not realize how different it is from keyboard trim.  All the written documentation I can find about Aces High trim all deal with keyboard trim.

There are a number of issues I've discovered since going to analog trim:
1.  It is not nearly as convient to use CT together with AT as it is with KT.  The reason is, CT does not automatically shut off when you move an AT control like it does with KT.  Is this just an oversight or is this this by design?  It may not be technically possible for AH to detect when you've moved an AT so that feature may never exist.  It is because of this behavior that I have quit using combat trim all together.

2. There is an annoying delay between moving an AT control and the trim surface actually moving.  It's like a BB in oil.  This takes a long time to get used to.  In fact, one of my squad mates gave up on AT because he couldn't get used to that.  I don't understand why there is this delay.  The trim control is connected to the surface through cables in RL.  There should not be this delay.  Is this a bug?

3.  I originally planned only to use AT for elevator and rudder and assign buttons on my joystick to control ailerons (since I rarely touch that control).  Problem is, when I assigned AT for elevator and rudder, I discovered my aileron trim was shifted off maximum right everytime I launched a plane.  I would have to use KT keys to center my aileron EVERYTIME I hopped in a plane.  I ended up having to assign AT to the aileron as well to solve that.  Is there something I need to configure somewhere to keep this from happening or is this a bug as well?

Thank you for any advice you might have or URLs to good articles on using analog trim.

[scottydawg]

I've been playing with manual trim on my X52, using the AH mappings and not the Saitek mapper.

It's hard to get right...   the mapping style in AH is a positional type, not an input type (like mimicking the keyboard presses), so it takes some getting used to.  I mapped the big wheel on the throttle to elevator trim and the smallerone near the thumb to aileron trim.  Did not set a map for rudder trim but I might use the slider on the throttle.  I've found that the trim adjustments aren't exactly slow, but appear to be modelled realistically, i.e. they don't whip around like the control surfaces, that's not what they're for.

Maybe I'll get used to it, but the only time I use it is when knife-fighting in an inferior-turning plane against someone who's got the advantage.

Sometimes it helps, sometimes not.

[HomeBoy]

Scotty,
I need to get on the same page with you concerning terminology.  

Originally posted by scottydawg
]I've been playing with manual trim on my X52, using the AH mappings and not the Saitek mapper.

There are two types of "manual" trim in AH.  Do you mean "analog trim" here or "keyboard trim?"  I am calling "analog trim" when you assign a real axis (e.g. joystick throttle) to the "elevator trim axis" in the "Map Controllers" utility within AH.  I call "keyboard trim" the keystrokes that would increment /decrement in steps (the way Autopilot Level, Climb-Speed, and Climb-Angle does) and is what would typically be assigned to a JS hat switch.

It's hard to get right...   the mapping style in AH is a positional type, not an input type (like mimicking the keyboard presses), so it takes some getting used to.

I don't understand.  What do you mean by "positional type?"  What is this "mapping style" you refere to?  I am assuming what you are calling "input type" what I'm calling "keyboard trim."  No?  Sorry, not trying to nit-pick here, I'm just confused by what you're saying.

I've found that the trim adjustments aren't exactly slow, but appear to be modelled realistically, i.e. they don't whip around like the control surfaces, that's not what they're for.

Are you saying you don't see the "BB in oil" response to moving the analog trim control or are you saying that HTC purposely makes the control respond a little slow because it would be unrealistic to have it respond like the other aircraft control surfaces (e.g. elevators, rudders, ailerons) do?  I fly a Cessna 172 and it takes many turns on the elevator trim wheel to move the trim very much.  I.e., if the trim was all the way at one of the end points, it would probably take five or six full turns to get that trim centered.  That would be a fairly slow process.  It does make sense that HTC would want to emulate that behavior by the "BB in oil" response.   Is that what you mean?  Interesting that "keyboard trim" does not exhibit this behavior.  It responds pretty much instantly.  If you click down trim three time, it goes down that precise amount pretty much as soon as you press the key.  That fact is actually what is keeping my squad mate from wanting to go to analog trim.   That seems like something HTC should address one way or the other.

Thanks for your thoughts on this.

[scottydawg]

Hi homeboy.

When I describe the manual trim I am using, it is native to AH in the joystick settings for the X52.  Real axis trim, I'll try to describe below but will most likely only confuse people more.

This is in contrast to zone mapping in the Saitek software, you can assign functions to particular zones within the throw of a rotating wheel to emulate keystrokes.  For example if the throw of a wheel is 0-100%, you can assign 0-40% to one key (e.g. left aileron trim key), 41-60% to a dead zone (no input) and 61-100% to another key (e.g right aileron trim key).  I tried this and hated it.

As for positional trim, what it means is that if the rotating knob is centered, the trim is neutral and changes when I turn the knob to end up at whatever position the knob ends up in.  For example if I turn the knob halfway from the center in one direction towards the end of the throw, the trim tab will go halfway in one direction.  This is NOT like the keyboard trim function where you hit a key to move it a little and another key to move it back a little.  It works just like REAL trim actuators would work.

And as for the slowness of the change, I'm guessing that they do move slower because they're not designed to be real control surfaces beyond minor adjustments.  There's probably a damping adjustment you can make on the axis, that might speed it up, if you are using axis mapping, like the primary axes have. I didn't look at it.  Like I said, I'm still experimenting with it and deciding if that particular part of the 'realism' is too real for me...  like having to find food or go take a leak in CoD or something.

[HomeBoy]

Actually, I probably would have never thought about getting away from Combat Trim if I hadn't taken a detour from AH a few years back with IL2.   IL2 has no concept of CT so you are forced to learn to manage manual trim.  It was very difficult for me to get used to but when I finally did get comfortable with trimming my plane at all times, I naturally brought my "new found skill" back with me to Aces High.  I do think it's worth the effort.

The "positional trim" feature of the X52 sounds like the way to go.  I'm guessing it is not using analog trim to do this but sends out keyboard trim commands to match the position of the knob.  Does that sound right?  Analog trim works pretty much like that too except you have to be careful to calibrate your controls carefully first.

[Eagler]

I have it setup so I can use both
Combat trim most of the time with manual trim with axis when in close turn fighting but with a click of a button, right after I re-center the rotor, I am back on combat trim as it is the fastest way to get a plane properly trimmed up depending on the speed you are going.

[scottydawg]

Originally posted by HomeBoy
The "positional trim" feature of the X52 sounds like the way to go.  I'm guessing it is not using analog trim to do this but sends out keyboard trim commands to match the position of the knob.  Does that sound right?  Analog trim works pretty much like that too except you have to be careful to calibrate your controls carefully first.

Actually it's just the opposite.  It maps the same way a throttle axis would.  For example if you have your throttle axis at 80%, the throttle is at 80% on the plane.  Same way with the twistys.  If the trim twisty is in the middle, the trim is neutral, no matter what.

I knew I was being confusing.

Sorry.