Author Topic: AMD's 4x4  (Read 1956 times)

Offline handy169

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AMD's 4x4
« on: November 01, 2006, 05:36:52 AM »
I been reading about the the  new AMD 4x4 systems coming out and all i can say is "WOW". apparently , AMD is gonna use 2 X2 processors ( 2 chip x 2 cores giving you 4 cores total) to power the systems, in comparsion Intel's gonna be using a single chip with 4 cores on it). according to what i saw the AMD will kick the intel systems based on the fact that Intel has to share the single bus to all 4 cores where AMD can use 2 buses to run both chips giving it higher bandwidth to operator. according to prices a 4x4 kit will start under 999 for those that have the money. for comparision the prices of the high end duo core chip alone is about 895.00. i think my money will go with AMD. my .02

Offline megadud

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AMD's 4x4
« Reply #1 on: November 01, 2006, 06:08:47 AM »
i don't know much about computers but i noticed amds are cheaper then intels.

what would be the difference between this

AMD

and this

INTEL

besides over $200? Which are better?

which would be better to run AH and adobe software? i.e. photoshop, audition, premiere etc. The system requirements for the softwares says intel.

Offline Skuzzy

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AMD's 4x4
« Reply #2 on: November 01, 2006, 06:38:12 AM »
Instead of buying into the marketing hype, why not wait untilthey actually ship?

By the way, any benchmark can be done to prove exactly what you want to prove.

Also note, in the real world, you will probably experience about a 5% increase in performance (if that) over a dual core CPU.  I'll leave off the long desertation as to why.
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Offline Mini D

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AMD's 4x4
« Reply #3 on: November 01, 2006, 07:46:19 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by megadud
i don't know much about computers but i noticed amds are cheaper then intels.

what would be the difference between this

AMD

and this

INTEL

besides over $200? Which are better?

which would be better to run AH and adobe software? i.e. photoshop, audition, premiere etc. The system requirements for the softwares says intel.
Anandtech has the explanation you need: http://www.anandtech.com/cpuchipsets/showdoc.aspx?i=2802&p=4

You're comparing the wrong processors.

Offline Kev367th

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AMD's 4x4
« Reply #4 on: November 01, 2006, 08:20:19 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Skuzzy
Instead of buying into the marketing hype, why not wait untilthey actually ship?

By the way, any benchmark can be done to prove exactly what you want to prove.

Also note, in the real world, you will probably experience about a 5% increase in performance (if that) over a dual core CPU.  I'll leave off the long desertation as to why.


As Skuzzy said.

Couple of caveats -
a) If the app will use multiple CPU's it should be better that 5%, I remember seeing some benchies somewhere that showed under Windows Vista the 4x4 running those apps showed up to an 80% increase. (bear in mind Skuzzy's warning about benchies).

b) May just need one of these if your thinking of using Vista.

Wait till we see what actually appears Nov 14th when they are slated for release.
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Offline handy169

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AMD's 4x4
« Reply #5 on: November 01, 2006, 08:43:50 AM »
Photoshop is a mutl-threading app i think. meaning it takes advantage of multiple CPU's. bare in mind  any CPU has its strengths and weakness.  some CPUs may be better at running applications rather then games. and vise versa.  thats why intel uses Xeons processors for servers (8 to 16 mbs of cache to compete with Operton's 2 or 4 Mbs cache) but i do know that 4 cores is better then 2 no matter how you slice it.  providing the application you running takes advantage of them. if you running a app or game that only uses 1 CPU then you can 100000 cpus and it make not much difference.  but as i see it now .. Intels high end conroe CPU alone is almost 900.00 .. AMDs 4x4 starting kit is gonna start under 1000. so for 100.00 difference your gonna get 4 cpus and the motherboard while for that same money your gonna get just a CPU.  also keep end mind that intel has to put 4MB of shared  cache on their chips to compete with 2 ( 2 x 1MB) the AMD's CHIPs , so naturally if you gonna compare core duo/ conroe chips with AMDS chips how do you think AMD's chip would run with Twice as much cache on them. AMD's onboard die memory controller will be superior to what Intel uses north/south bridges . no matter how you slice it.  also like i pointed out its easy to to see that running 4 cores on a single socket will cause a bandwidth issues with intels new quad-core offerings. and also when amd comes out with quad core chips you should be able to put 2 quads cores in giving you 8 cores.  which is a better upgrade path in the future then intels path

Offline Kev367th

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AMD's 4x4
« Reply #6 on: November 01, 2006, 09:49:37 AM »
Don't get me wrong.

If you need that sort of power and have apps that support it multiple cores are the way to go.

This is what I would expect performance wise -
single thread - Woodcrest
multi thread - should be about equal
multiple multithread - 4x4, with the gap increasing the more you throw at them.

Pros/cons
Intel -
Pro - less heat, less power consumption, should fit existing Conroe boards.
Con - limited upgrade path

AMD
Pro - More open upgrade path, will take 2 x K8L's next year making it possible to have 2 quad cores (8 cores) on the 4x4. Or a single K8L leaving the other socket open for FPU's. (yup they are coming)
Cons - HEAT, as one who always criticised the P4's for being hot, can't let AMD get away with it, and power consumption. Will also require a new motherbaord.

My thoughts -
If you absolutley have to have a 4 core solution -
a) If you play mostly games, probably Woodcrest
b) If you you lots of things at once, 4x4
c) Graphics intensive - 4x4, supports 4 graphics cards.
d) If you can wait till next year K8L for socket AM2.

Of course come Nov 14th I could be proved totally wrong.

Just though another interesting difference -
Woodcrest will run on XP Home
4x4 will require XP Pro or Win 2000 Server
« Last Edit: November 01, 2006, 09:56:42 AM by Kev367th »
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Offline handy169

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AMD's 4x4
« Reply #7 on: November 01, 2006, 02:54:13 PM »
as stated above:

Just though another interesting difference -
Woodcrest will run on XP Home
4x4 will require XP Pro or Win 2000 Server


woodcrest is intels Xeon server  processor and more then likely wouldnt want to run XP Home on it to start with, your thinking of clovertown.

Offline Kev367th

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« Reply #8 on: November 01, 2006, 03:57:34 PM »
Oops I meant Kentsfield, Intels 2+2 4 core solution.:confused:

Still the same -
Kentsfield - XP Home
4x4 - XP Pro or Win 2000 Server

Why?
Because XP Home does not support 2 physical CPUS, but will support multiple cores.
Because Windows 2000 treats each core as a physically seperate CPU, and assumes one core per socket.

Also applies to where I put Woodcrest any where else in the post.
Release date for both (assuming the usaul) - Nov 14th
« Last Edit: November 01, 2006, 04:04:41 PM by Kev367th »
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Offline Schutt

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AMD's 4x4
« Reply #9 on: November 01, 2006, 04:57:14 PM »
It all depends on the money you want to spend for the system and what you want to do with it. It is not only important which software you run, but also how you use that software.

To run the adobe software an 700 dollar comp is good as well as a 800 dollar one will get you enough for ah2. I am talking of only the computer here without monitor, flight gear, trackir etc. since you have those costs no matter which pc you buy.

But if using that stuff professional I want data security, more hard disk capacity and an UPS. And i want that a lot more than i want whizz bang super CPU. So instead of spending 500 Dollar extra on the cpu and get nothing on AH2 and a 5 percent gain overall i rather buy an 3 Hard disks, a small ups and a quieter case.

If i use the system personal i want, instead of a extremly cool cpu which only gives slight improovements in ah2 over a normaly cool cpu (E6800 over E6600 ), CH Joystick & Throttle, TrackIR 4 and pedals.

When you want to work a lot with images and videos a lot of ram and big disks in a raid 5 (or 6) array will bring you further than the absolute best cpu. So if you plan on spending 3000$ you can get it all, otherwise its wiser to step down the CPU a bit and get a better Graphic / Harddisks / Quality System instead. Comparing equal price systems currently intel conroe core 2 duo are best, if on the high end market, that is if you buy a 6400 or better. On the low end as already discussed in other threads AMD or other Intel processors have some places.

Now, after writing some general stuff which probably nobody reads anyway, to the initial posts of megadud and handy169. When comparing the best AMD and the best Core 2 Duo the intel comes out far on top. When comparing Conroe 2 Duo 6600 to the fastest AMD (FX-62) the intel is still on top, with a whooping price advantage (~400 dollar on cpu...  320 dollar figuring in the more expensive intel motherboard). That is at stock speed. Now others might say they can overclock their AMD / Intel Pentium D, but nothing currently available overclocks like a conroe, giving it eaven more performance advantage.
So the Intel you listed is faster, eaven a cheaper conroe is faster AND leaves money for other stuff.

On CPUs one of the limiting factors is the memory bandwidth. So as long as you use dual channel DDR2-1066 memory 4 cpus arent going to give you double the performance of 2, since they are starving. Worst case the two CPUs do nothing for your application since it is not multi threaded enough to feed all of em, best case it has 4 or more threads but they still have to wait for each other to prevent total chaos. So apart from the coolness factor you get 2 to 40 percent... for a lot of money. I rather hope for a drop in the dual core processor prices with the release than for getting a 4 cpu system.

4 Graphic cards in one system? Cool but i can't eaven afford the best single GPU graphic card and it is not worth it combining 2 or more graphic boards which are not top of the line. The gain of getting one better chip is much higher.

Offline handy169

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AMD's 4x4
« Reply #10 on: November 01, 2006, 05:05:08 PM »
does anyone actually have a OEM copy of windows XP home? i know they sale them but i have never seen anyone buy a copy for use to install on systems. 99.9% of copy of XP home i see came with a compaq/HP/dell etc on a recovery disk.  on the flip side i have seen tons of OEM XP pro CD's people have bought.  i know with HP/compaq/dell  recovery disks you cant use the system disk to install windows with othe then the one it came with.  and if you make too many changes with XP home you have to reactivate it.


Offline Kev367th

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« Reply #12 on: November 02, 2006, 07:06:49 AM »
What your missing Schutt -

4x4 won't be bandwidth starved.
2 memory controllers accessing 2 seperate banks of memory.

Communication between the two CPU's via very fast bi-directional enhanced HT links. (much faster than using Kentsfield FSB)

You are correct about the Conroe v X64 comparison.

Only difference is as you go down to the x5000 and below they are on par with their equivalent price Conroe couterparts, but high end yup defiantely Conroe, at the moment.
« Last Edit: November 02, 2006, 07:13:00 AM by Kev367th »
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Offline handy169

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AMD's 4x4
« Reply #13 on: November 02, 2006, 07:48:08 AM »
i second thd 367th! , and even when AMD goes to 4 cores on a chip .. it will be 2 busses with  4 cores running to give you 8 cores, where intel will have to either go to 2 sockets like AMD or have serious issues  with putting  8 cores on a single bus and make the bandwidth issue  worse. now the problem with that is that if intel has to go to 2 cores to fix the bus problem it means them having to have a new motherboard and hardware put into place. where as AMD has set in place it steps to a 8 core system without the problem.  that being said, if anyone of you deside to use VISTA and go intels route and then they make you change hardware to copy AMD setup. your probably gonna be stuck buying a another copy of vista. (if you read the VIsta post you'll see why).
 
also QUAD SLI!
 
From the looks of it Nvidia's partnership with AMD has grown four more legs in the support of the 4x4x4. As AMD asked Nvidia to create a chipset for its Quadfather launch.

News has hit the web that Nvidia has created the new platform for AMD for the 4x4 launch. The 4x4 plays host to 2 Opteron socket "F"'s on the same Motherboard which will than be upgradeable to AMD official Quad Core CPU which will be released next year. The system will not require registered ECC memory as rumored over the last few months, but will ask for regular DDR2 memory such as Corsair, OCZ, & Geil all provide currently.

The system will not only support quad-core Barcelona CPUs, but will support four graphics cards at the same time. Since the 680a chipset is created from a north bridge and south bridge chipset, there were enough PCIe lanes available to use four PEG (PCI Express Graphics) slots. Two slots come as x16 and two come as x8.
« Last Edit: November 02, 2006, 07:57:15 AM by handy169 »

Offline handy169

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lol screw that i want a ultrasparcT1
« Reply #14 on: November 02, 2006, 11:20:30 AM »
At the time of its release in December of 2005, a single chip, eight core, 32-thread, 1.2 GHz UltraSPARC T1 server performed similarly to a two-socket, four-core, eight-thread, 1.9 GHz IBM POWER5 server, performed similarly to a four socket, eight-core, sixteen-thread 3.0 GHz Intel Xeon "Paxville MP" server, and exceeded the performance of a four socket, four-core, four-thead 1.6 GHz Intel Itanium server. Arguably, this made the UltraSPARC T1 the world's most powerful general-purpose commercial server processor, when considering multithreaded commercial workloads.
 
just kidding .. but thats damn impressive