Author Topic: the future of car engines?  (Read 2203 times)

Offline Chairboy

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the future of car engines?
« Reply #45 on: November 05, 2006, 04:34:26 PM »
I'm interested in the Stirling Cycle as the generator component for a hybrid electric car.  Why do you think it's impractical?  Seems like a logical fit.
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Offline Viking

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« Reply #46 on: November 05, 2006, 04:50:05 PM »
It seems impractical because of the cyclic rate. Sterling engines have very low rpm and must therefore be quite big to get any appreciable energy from it. The Sterling has good thermal efficiency, but bad power to weight ratio which is important in a small vehicle like a car.

Offline stantond

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« Reply #47 on: November 05, 2006, 04:52:55 PM »
Why don't cars have Stirling Engines?  

http://www.stirlingengine.com/faq/one?scope=public&faq_id=1#3

Keep in mind this is information from a site that sells Stirling engines.  They may be biased.


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Offline Angus

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« Reply #48 on: November 06, 2006, 02:44:57 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Viking
By comparison the Wartsila-Sulzer RTA96-C turbocharged two-stroke diesel engine (ship motor) exceeds 50% thermal efficiency at maximum economy.


Interesting. And this is not THE limit of perfect combustion, although being vastly ahead of a car, - well, it doesn't exactly run the same way as a ship does much of the time.
The "pocket" Battlecruisers had diesels, wonder how that came out in fuel economy vs their Turbine powered brethren.Compare Graf Spee with the Edinburgh class cruisers perhaps, - similar weight AFAIK. There must be numbers around there somewhere.
Then off to generating electrics. What methods are used in the powerplants??? Surely not diesels????

and a P.S. which gives hope to you engine guys:
http://www.tct.is, but sadly in Icelandic. These guys are developing a new generation of carburettors, giving vastly more fuel efficiency, and can be installed on most systems. Here's one for mixing diesel and gas:
It was very interesting to carry out the flight trials at Rechlin with the Spitfire and the Hurricane. Both types are very simple to fly compared to our aircraft, and childishly easy to take-off and land. (Werner Mölders)

Offline mora

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« Reply #49 on: November 06, 2006, 04:47:44 AM »
The car Diesels can achieve 40% efficiency too, and there's room for improvement.

Offline Ghosth

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« Reply #50 on: November 06, 2006, 07:41:27 AM »
Yes but Gas & Diesel are non renewable resources, they are finite. They WILL run out at the rate we are using them.

External combustion, ie steam, sterling, etc can burn anything.
Like corn, cornstalks, switch grass pellets, wood pellets made from sawdust, vegetable oil, methane. These are all renewable resources. We can harvest them year after year with no ill effects.

As to the sterling engine, they make them to run off the waste head from your coffee cup. Yes you do get economy of scale with really big ones.

But a moderately sized one sitting there ticking away recharging your battery's in a hybrid makes sense.  In summer use a small amount of water & the cooling effect of evaporation to increase performance. That coupled with airflow from the moving car would help boost output.  As you noted in colder weather the sterling excels.

As to steam, yes, steam engines developed in the 1800's were pretty inefficient. You don't think we could develop a better system today?

Assuming a high efficiency turbine, just enough power to spin the flywheel and a small alternator/generator for charging battery's. Ok so its not as efficient. It doesn't have to be. With the price of gas going ever higher at some point its going to pay to quit buying gas.

Think of all the garbage every household sends to the landfill every week.
Now, how much of that is burnable, its free, how efficient does it have to be?
« Last Edit: November 06, 2006, 07:45:37 AM by Ghosth »

Offline Viking

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« Reply #51 on: November 06, 2006, 09:54:44 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Angus
Interesting. And this is not THE limit of perfect combustion, although being vastly ahead of a car, - well, it doesn't exactly run the same way as a ship does much of the time.
The "pocket" Battlecruisers had diesels, wonder how that came out in fuel economy vs their Turbine powered brethren.Compare Graf Spee with the Edinburgh class cruisers perhaps, - similar weight AFAIK. There must be numbers around there somewhere.
Then off to generating electrics. What methods are used in the powerplants??? Surely not diesels????


I don't know why you want to discuss 60 year old ship engines in a thread about "the future of car engines". Seems quite irrelevant. And I don't follow you on the question of "generating electrics". Do you mean if they use diesel generators on ships? If so then the answer is yes.

Offline Viking

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« Reply #52 on: November 06, 2006, 10:00:34 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Ghosth
Yes but Gas & Diesel are non renewable resources, they are finite. They WILL run out at the rate we are using them.


Petroleum oil is not a finite resource. New oil is formed every day, but at a much slower pace that we consume it of course. However this is not a problem since every gasoline engine can run on alcohol with little or no modification and every diesel engine can run on bio-diesel with no modification at all. The diesel I buy for my truck is 20% bio-diesel. The EU has decreed that by 2010 50% of the diesel we buy at the pump must be bio-diesel.

Offline mentalguy

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« Reply #53 on: November 06, 2006, 03:00:09 PM »
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Originally posted by Viking
 However this is not a problem since every gasoline engine can run on alcohol with little or no modification



Check your facts there. Alcohol burns much hotter than gas.
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Offline Angus

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« Reply #54 on: November 06, 2006, 03:12:31 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Viking
I don't know why you want to discuss 60 year old ship engines in a thread about "the future of car engines". Seems quite irrelevant. And I don't follow you on the question of "generating electrics". Do you mean if they use diesel generators on ships? If so then the answer is yes.


You're not getting what I mean, or more politely I did nor promote what I wanted to say in the clearest way.

Firstly, the diesel engines in ww2 vs the turbines used to propel vessels about the same size do indeed give something to ponder about.
Secondly, - as for the link with the future, - many methods were tried, tested, produced andd used in WW2 engine technology, only to appear as a "novelty" in our cars 30 or 40 years later.
As for the electrics, I am referring to powerplants and not ships. Land based powerplants where fossil fuel is being burned to generate electricity, - and perhaps as a sideproduct using the heat. I have no idea about their exact efficiency, but I know they are vastly ahead of everyday's Mary in her car.
I know they have diesel Generators on ships, and they did indeed as well 60 years ago. But that's ... Ships. You have limited space and weight, as well as a simplicity factor in the case of failiure. But what do the real powerplants use????
At least there you have a target figure from where to work.
It was very interesting to carry out the flight trials at Rechlin with the Spitfire and the Hurricane. Both types are very simple to fly compared to our aircraft, and childishly easy to take-off and land. (Werner Mölders)

Offline Viking

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« Reply #55 on: November 06, 2006, 03:13:20 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by mentalguy
Check your facts there. Alcohol burns much hotter than gas.


So what?

All gasoline engines can run on a mix of gas and alcohol. With modifications they can run on pure alcohol as many cars in Brazil do. Alcohol has also been used as a racing fuel for decades since it has a natural octane rating of more than 120.




A typical gas station in Brazil.

Offline Angus

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« Reply #56 on: November 06, 2006, 03:20:39 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Viking
So what?

All gasoline engines can run on a mix of gas and alcohol. With modifications they can run on pure alcohol as many cars in Brazil do. Alcohol has also been used as a racing fuel for decades since it has a natural octane rating of more than 120.




A typical gas station in Brazil.


Nice :aok
It was very interesting to carry out the flight trials at Rechlin with the Spitfire and the Hurricane. Both types are very simple to fly compared to our aircraft, and childishly easy to take-off and land. (Werner Mölders)

Offline Viking

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« Reply #57 on: November 06, 2006, 03:28:34 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Angus
You're not getting what I mean, or more politely I did nor promote what I wanted to say in the clearest way.


Obviously. :)


Quote
Originally posted by Angus
Firstly, the diesel engines in ww2 vs the turbines used to propel vessels about the same size do indeed give something to ponder about.


Why? What? Please tell me, I don't like guessing.


Quote
Originally posted by Angus
Secondly, - as for the link with the future, - many methods were tried, tested, produced andd used in WW2 engine technology, only to appear as a "novelty" in our cars 30 or 40 years later.


Yes, but the technology was unreliable in WWII. For example the DB 600 series of engines had fuel injection. Cars only started to get fuel injection in the '70s. However the DB was a 160 hour engine, try selling a car that needs an engine overhaul every 160 hours. ;)


Quote
Originally posted by Angus
As for the electrics, I am referring to powerplants and not ships. Land based powerplants where fossil fuel is being burned to generate electricity, - and perhaps as a sideproduct using the heat. I have no idea about their exact efficiency, but I know they are vastly ahead of everyday's Mary in her car


Modern fossil burning power plants run on natural gas. They use a gas-turbine and a steam-turbine. The gas-turbine (jet engine) runs a generator, and the heat from the jet exhaust is used to power the steam-turbine. Using this combined cycle method they can achieve a thermal efficiency of about 60%.

Offline Holden McGroin

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« Reply #58 on: November 06, 2006, 09:22:36 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Viking
Steam engines are incredibly energy-inefficient.




This steam engine exceeds 40% heat efficiency. Double the efficiency of a typical automotive IC engine.
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Offline Holden McGroin

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« Reply #59 on: November 06, 2006, 09:25:45 PM »
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Originally posted by Viking
No. The steam-piston engines are in the lower range of 1-8%. Steam turbines are in the upper range. You'll notice that no modern ship uses steam turbines anymore. They're all diesels now - have been for some time.




A steam ship in the US Navy...
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