Author Topic: the future of car engines?  (Read 2219 times)

Offline mentalguy

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the future of car engines?
« Reply #60 on: November 06, 2006, 10:05:13 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Holden McGroin


A steam ship in the US Navy...



 I thougt they were nuclear
PFC. Corey "Mentalguy" Gibson
USMC

Offline lukster

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« Reply #61 on: November 06, 2006, 10:12:12 PM »
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Originally posted by mentalguy
I thougt they were nuclear


Only the ones that use it to generate steam. ;)

Offline ghi

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« Reply #62 on: November 06, 2006, 10:39:54 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by mentalguy
I thougt they were nuclear


 The nuclear power used on ships and nuclear power plant is still on improvement of the Steam engine, it  first used coal,   liquid fuel  and now the nuclear fussion, to warm up water and make steams,
 But still steams under presure are the "transit agent", to turbine /prop or turbine/generator and electric power to prop
 works same way in Aircraft Carier/ Subs or any other Nuclear powerstation

 See the animation  below :

http://science.howstuffworks.com/nuclear-power.htm

Offline mora

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« Reply #63 on: November 07, 2006, 12:40:33 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Ghosth
Yes but Gas & Diesel are non renewable resources, they are finite. They WILL run out at the rate we are using them.

you can use renewable resources if you want to, Diesels are especially flexible in this regard.

Offline Angus

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« Reply #64 on: November 07, 2006, 02:23:23 AM »
Viking:
"Yes, but the technology was unreliable in WWII. For example the DB 600 series of engines had fuel injection. Cars only started to get fuel injection in the '70s. However the DB was a 160 hour engine, try selling a car that needs an engine overhaul every 160 hours. "

AFAIK that was not related to the injection.
It was very interesting to carry out the flight trials at Rechlin with the Spitfire and the Hurricane. Both types are very simple to fly compared to our aircraft, and childishly easy to take-off and land. (Werner Mölders)

Offline Angus

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« Reply #65 on: November 07, 2006, 02:56:47 AM »
More for you to ponder Viking.
Graf Spee vs British heavy cruisers, taking HMS Exeter for there I have both range and fuel. Although Exeter is only some 65% of Graf Spees displacement, one must bear in mind that it's a much older ship.

Graf Spee:
Displacement: 12100-16200 t.
Engines 65.000 hp diesel.
Top Speed: 28.5 kts.
Fuel 2523 t.
Range: 8,900 nautical miles at 20 knots (16,500 km at 37 km/h)
or 19,000 nautical miles at 10 knots (35,000 km at 18.5 km/h)

So you have some 3.5 nm per tonne at 20 kts or some 7.5 Nm per tonne at  10 kts.

Exeter:
Displacement: 8,390t standard; 10,490 deep load
Engines 80.000 hp steam turbine
Top speed 32 kts
Oil 1900 t.
Range: 8,400nm at 14kts
So you have some 4.4 nm per tonne at 14 kts.

As seen, the Diesel holds the cards, just not by very far. I wish I had data handy on the bigger English cruisers, but there seem to be numbers failing all the time. Well, will see what I find.
It was very interesting to carry out the flight trials at Rechlin with the Spitfire and the Hurricane. Both types are very simple to fly compared to our aircraft, and childishly easy to take-off and land. (Werner Mölders)

Offline Angus

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« Reply #66 on: November 07, 2006, 03:11:51 AM »
Yet to the boiling room, BINGO.
The HMS Belfast and Edinburgh are built close in time to the Graf Spee, and are very close in size, full somewhat above 13.000 tonnes.
82000 hp turbine propulsion to give 32.5 kts, 9800 nm done at 15 kts, and the tanks are holding 2375 tonnes, that makes 4.1 Nm for the Tonne.
Something to extrapolate from for the size. Anyway, seems to me it's pretty much in the same ballpark, but I have no idea what the British cruisers could have gone far in slower cruise. Maybe not a good idea because of Subs...
It was very interesting to carry out the flight trials at Rechlin with the Spitfire and the Hurricane. Both types are very simple to fly compared to our aircraft, and childishly easy to take-off and land. (Werner Mölders)

Offline MrRiplEy[H]

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« Reply #67 on: November 07, 2006, 03:37:45 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Angus
(Image removed from quote.)

Nice :aok


So that's why no finns came out alive from Brass gas stations - they thought the other one was for the car, the other for the driver. :rolleyes:
Definiteness of purpose is the starting point of all achievement. –W. Clement Stone

Offline Viking

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« Reply #68 on: November 07, 2006, 09:47:54 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Holden McGroin


This steam engine exceeds 40% heat efficiency. Double the efficiency of a typical automotive IC engine.


Perhaps double the efficiency of a typical US car engine, but 40% is about 5% less than that of a typical modern small European turbo-diesel.

Offline Viking

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« Reply #69 on: November 07, 2006, 10:22:16 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Angus
More for you to ponder Viking.
Graf Spee vs British heavy cruisers, taking HMS Exeter for there I have both range and fuel. Although Exeter is only some 65% of Graf Spees displacement, one must bear in mind that it's a much older ship.

Graf Spee:
Displacement: 12100-16200 t.
Engines 65.000 hp diesel.
Top Speed: 28.5 kts.
Fuel 2523 t.
Range: 8,900 nautical miles at 20 knots (16,500 km at 37 km/h)
or 19,000 nautical miles at 10 knots (35,000 km at 18.5 km/h)

So you have some 3.5 nm per tonne at 20 kts or some 7.5 Nm per tonne at  10 kts.

Exeter:
Displacement: 8,390t standard; 10,490 deep load
Engines 80.000 hp steam turbine
Top speed 32 kts
Oil 1900 t.
Range: 8,400nm at 14kts
So you have some 4.4 nm per tonne at 14 kts.

As seen, the Diesel holds the cards, just not by very far. I wish I had data handy on the bigger English cruisers, but there seem to be numbers failing all the time. Well, will see what I find.


Seems like the diesels were about 20-30% more fuel efficient than the steam engines in WWII. However, the diesel's main advantage was probably size back then. Diesels were a relatively new technology while the steam engine was refined over a century of use.

Today the diesel engine has been the most used ship engine for 30 years. There are still a hundred or so steam turbine dinosaurs in operation though. The diesel is smaller, lighter, and more economical while using the same fuel oil. Though combo to beat.

Offline Viking

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« Reply #70 on: November 07, 2006, 10:27:09 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Holden McGroin


A steam ship in the US Navy...


Nuclear powered steam turbines are actually even less efficient than conventional steam turbines, both in thermal efficiency and fuel economy. That matters not for military applications of course, but for civilian use they are pointless.

Offline Chairboy

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« Reply #71 on: November 07, 2006, 10:42:21 AM »
Less efficient by what measure?
"When fascism comes to America it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross." - Sinclair Lewis

Offline mora

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« Reply #72 on: November 07, 2006, 10:51:32 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Viking
Perhaps double the efficiency of a typical US car engine, but 40% is about 5% less than that of a typical modern small European turbo-diesel.

Back in school we calculated the average efficiency of an american V8 gasoline engine with an automatic transmission. It was around 13% IIRC. Now take a small TD engine and couple it with a hybrid powertrain and you have that same car with a fuel consumption of 1/3 of the V8 model.

Offline Angus

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« Reply #73 on: November 07, 2006, 11:13:40 AM »
Viking:
"Seems like the diesels were about 20-30% more fuel efficient than the steam engines in WWII. However, the diesel's main advantage was probably size back then. Diesels were a relatively new technology while the steam engine was refined over a century of use."

Not really?
Firstly, the fuel consumption is really in the same ballpark. Did you graph this? There is the increased displacement to add to the equation, but also that while the Graf Spee class has a high cruise vs lowe max speed, it can be because of the engines being built for that job, while the boiler cruisers were built for top speed. Just my cents.
Secondly, the diesel was rather older than a steam TURBINE. The steam turbine emerged when? Around WWI?
Then to the Nuclear part. Aren't turbines the only way to harness their energy?
It was very interesting to carry out the flight trials at Rechlin with the Spitfire and the Hurricane. Both types are very simple to fly compared to our aircraft, and childishly easy to take-off and land. (Werner Mölders)

Offline Viking

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« Reply #74 on: November 07, 2006, 11:15:32 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Chairboy
Less efficient by what measure?


Nuclear vs. Conventional Marine Power Plants
By Al Minyard
Updated 23 December 1998
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

There appears to be some confusion as to the differences and similarities between conventional steam propulsion plants and nuclear steam propulsion plants. This post is intended to clarify some of the issues. Nuclear propulsion technology is subject to a high level of classification, so some
information must be omitted.
There are more similarities than differences between the two predominate methods of steam ship propulsion, so I will first list these similarities:

1. Both nuclear and conventional propulsion plants use (with a few experimental exceptions) geared steam turbines. These turbine/reduction gear sets are connected directly to the forward end of the propeller shaft, thus one turbine set drives one propeller.

2. Both nuclear and conventional plants use seawater as the primary coolant in the steam cycle (that is, sea water passing through the tubes of a condenser is used to return the used steam to a liquid state so that it can be returned to the steam generator).* Thus the temperature of the near surface sea water can be a limitation on the maximum sustained performance of either type of plant. This typically becomes a serious issue for conventional plants at water temperatures at or greater than
96deg F.

*This is part of the "secondary cooling cycle" in nuclear plants, but it is still the terminal thermal transfer point.

3. Both nuclear and conventional plants use steam turbine powered turbine generators for ship's service electrical power. In warships, and in all nuclear plants, there are diesel (or, rarely, gas turbine) back up generators to power critical circuits.

4. Neither nuclear nor conventional plants develop more power based on the nature of the energy source. Conventional plants are more thermally efficient and tend to last longer than nuclear plants. Nuclear plants operate at lower temperatures and pressures and obviously require fewer refuelings.

5. The limitations on power produced for both types of plants lie in the design and construction of the gears, shafting, thrust bearings, and supporting structure, rather than in the turbines or steam generators.

6. High speed endurance is similar for both plants, until the conventional must slow for a few hours for refueling. The limitations on ship's speed are a product of hull design, propeller efficiency, horsepower, vibration, and thermal build up in the propulsion plant. Nuclear plants do not have a de facto advantage in any of these areas, although the smaller hull made possible by the reduction in liquid load is a factor in some designs.

Some of the significant differences between nuclear and conventional steam propulsion plants are:

1. Cost: Nuclear plants are far more expensive to build, maintain, operate, and dispose of. Fuel costs are actually lower for a conventional plant, considering the costs of a refueling overhaul for a nuclear powered ship. Manning levels are higher for a nuclear plant, as are training costs.

2. Flexibility: Nuclear plants require very heavy and complex foundations and shielding. This has a very significant influence on hull and machinery design. Conventional plants can be configured with many more options.

3. Efficiency: Conventional plants use superheated steam (that is, steam whose temperature is well above the vaporization point at a given pressure). This results in smaller turbine size and greater BTU content per pound of steam. This allows the use of smaller turbines to attain the same power levels. This also eliminates much of the "carry over" of contaminants that can erode and/or foul turbine blades. Nuclear plants use steam that is closer to its saturation point, and this results in greater turbine maintenance requirements.

4. Redundancy: Due to the high cost of reactors, modern nuclear plants are limited to two reactors, while conventional plants for capital ships may have up to eight boilers. The discrepancy in redundancy is obvious.

5. Diplomacy: (Sigh, I really hate this one!) Some "friendly" countries will not allow port visits from nuclear powered vessels. This could be significant in the event of battle damage.

6. Range: Nuclear, no contest.

7. Survivability: The actual survivability of the two designs is similar, with the nuclear plant being somewhat better protected, while the conventional plant is much easier to repair (including "jury rigging" in extremis).

8. The nuclear plant has a smaller above surface IR signature, and possibly a lower radar image, as a result of the elimination of stacks and stack gasses.
« Last Edit: November 07, 2006, 11:33:13 AM by Viking »