Banning cluster munitions.

[Gunslinger]

To think that the ONLY type of war we will ever fight ever again is going to be an insurgancy like Iraq is idiotic to say the least.

"Cluster munitions are very accurate, they allways hit the ground"

They are also effective at two things 1. causing mass amount of casualties and equipment destruction 2.  creating absolute fear on the targets they are used on.

With this being said the newer type of cluster munitions (can't remember the designator) have better failsafes to prevent UXO as well as guidence to put them on the correct targets.


Nils what scares me more than cluster munitions is some euro saying we should have a kindler gentler type of warfare.  Wars arent faught with rubber band guns.

[Nilsen]

Originally posted by Irwink!
Can't agree. In my mind its the misuse (rules of so-called civilized warfare) that makes them objectionable to so many people including me when they are misused. There will at times still be terrible collateral damage to unintended targets even when used "properly" but that is the nature of war. There will always be the danger of some collateral damage even if we were to go back to using clubs.

So who will decide when and were they can be used, and should they be made responsible for removing the duds later?

[mora]

Originally posted by Nilsen
They are no longer put in the ground by the nations that have signed the treaty. Your country has signed, and i would guess there are no minefields surrounding Finland that you have put there any more.

AFAIK we haven't signed it yet, and hopefully after regime change we won't.

[Gunslinger]

Originally posted by Nilsen
So who will decide when and were they can be used, and should they be made responsible for removing the duds later?

The generals fighting the war should decide.

[Nilsen]

Originally posted by Gunslinger
Nils what scares me more than cluster munitions is some euro saying we should have a kindler gentler type of warfare.  Wars arent faught with rubber band guns.

Yeah.. its sooooooo much less scary that thousands of them are left and kills decades after they have been used.

I bet the attitude would be slightly different if your kids went out into the yard, on a school trip or played on a field tomorrow and got blown up by one. But they are not used against you on your soil are they? They are used over there ----> somewere were they bad guys live



Sure they have gotten better in recent years and they are now at about the 1% fail mark. That leaves fewer. Btw how many duds is 1% of the total when you talk about cluster munitions? If it was 1% of regular shells and bombs it would not be that hard to clean up, but 1% of a few 10s of thousands still is ALOT

[Nilsen]

Originally posted by Gunslinger
The generals fighting the war should decide.

mhm.. and what could be done to them if things went fubar? A bit of yelling and some finger pointing?

[Maverick]

I nominate Nilsen as the primary dud finder and disposal technician.

[Gunslinger]

Originally posted by Nilsen
Yeah.. its sooooooo much less scary that thousands of them are left and kills decades after they have been used.

I bet the attitude would be slightly different if your kids went out into the yard, on a school trip or played on a field tomorrow and got blown up by one. But they are not used against you on your soil are they? They are used over there ----> somewere were they bad guys live

Yup that's right....where bad guys live.....and usually that isn't a largly populated area.  Cluster munitions as a rule are 1.  Ineffective in an urban environment and 2. Not allowed to be used due to collateral damage.

They are used on vehicles and people out in the open.  As I said before the newest generation have better failsafes and guidence systems.

http://www.systems.textron.com/videos/530.1-SFW-in-OIF.wmv

[Mark Luper]

Originally posted by Nilsen
mhm.. and what could be done to them if things went fubar? A bit of yelling and some finger pointing?

Nilsen,

There are no guarantees in life especially in war. No matter who was responsible to clean up an area of munitions, there would still be oversights.

Are you advocating that whoever that person or group of persons is be held accountable for every item ever used in an area where there was a war? Are you wanting them sued, shot, hung or beheaded for the failure of getting the area cleaned up perfectly? What exactly are you looking for with your question?

Mark

[Vudak]

If children being wounded or killed is what we're worried about...  Banning cluster munitions is like cutting down a branch when the entire tree is about to drop on your house.

I agree that people should be more concerned with stopping Islamic extremists.

[Nilsen]

Originally posted by Maverick
I nominate Nilsen as the primary dud finder and disposal technician.

Thank you for the nomination

Train me and pay me with the promise of not using them again and I may actually go

[Gunslinger]

Originally posted by Nilsen
mhm.. and what could be done to them if things went fubar? A bit of yelling and some finger pointing?

You say this as if we have monsters in our military operating with impunity from any type of responsibilitys at all.

Did you know that for every General fighting there's a JAG lawyer right next to him telling him what's legal and not.

[Nilsen]

Originally posted by Mark Luper
Nilsen,

There are no guarantees in life especially in war. No matter who was responsible to clean up an area of munitions, there would still be oversights.

Are you advocating that whoever that person or group of persons is be held accountable for every item ever used in an area where there was a war? Are you wanting them sued, shot, hung or beheaded for the failure of getting the area cleaned up perfectly? What exactly are you looking for with your question?

Mark

So as long as there is no guaratnees its pointless to do your best?

Yes im advocating that a person or group is to be held accountable. They are already. If some guy from here sprayes a residential area with a machine gun going for that one dude in the window and kills many innocent folks he will be promptly prosecuted. I bet that applies for US soldier using excessive force too.

[cav58d]

I think we should cluster bomb any Euro Nation that trys to tell us we shouldn't cluster bomb anymore.

[Gunslinger]

Nils before this gets burried in the post

http://www.systems.textron.com/videos/530.1-SFW-in-OIF.wmv