Author Topic: Banning cluster munitions.  (Read 4261 times)

Offline Nilsen

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 18108
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Banning cluster munitions.
« Reply #30 on: November 18, 2006, 05:42:00 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Gunslinger
You say this as if we have monsters in our military operating with impunity from any type of responsibilitys at all.

Did you know that for every General fighting there's a JAG lawyer right next to him telling him what's legal and not.


nono.. im not saying you are monsters... FAR from it.

There are options to using the cluster munitions. You know that aswell as me. It will take afew more convetional shells to take out a group of infantry men (example) and it will cost more and be less conveniant, but as a marine you know very well that there is an option.

Offline Nilsen

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 18108
Banning cluster munitions.
« Reply #31 on: November 18, 2006, 05:44:00 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by cav58d
I think we should cluster bomb any Euro Nation that trys to tell us we shouldn't cluster bomb anymore.



I know you want to. We know how much you hate Europe. Sais alot about your as a person.

Offline VOR

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2313
Banning cluster munitions.
« Reply #32 on: November 18, 2006, 05:44:53 PM »
Any type of ordinance is cabable of leaving a dud on the battlefield. Is it practical to hold someone responsible for every single one? It would be the next logical step.

In my mind it makes sense to design better fail-safes into the munitions themselves if they are indeed as big a problem as the article suggests vs an outright ban.

Collateral damage in general is something that has to be carefully considered by both sides in a conflict. It can be avoided...if both sides want it to be.
« Last Edit: November 18, 2006, 05:51:31 PM by VOR »

Offline Maverick

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 13901
Banning cluster munitions.
« Reply #33 on: November 18, 2006, 05:45:07 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Nilsen
Thank you for the nomination :D

Train me and pay me with the promise of not using them again and I may actually go


No problem. Training is simple, fortunately for you. Lace up your boots and go out looking for the submunitions. When you find one. place your boot on it with a downward velocity of about 50 fps. After you've done that with both feet I'll be happy to pay you $.25. I guarantee you won't be using any more cluster munitions after that.
DEFINITION OF A VETERAN
A Veteran - whether active duty, retired, national guard or reserve - is someone who, at one point in their life, wrote a check made payable to "The United States of America", for an amount of "up to and including my life."
Author Unknown

Offline Mark Luper

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1626
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Banning cluster munitions.
« Reply #34 on: November 18, 2006, 06:05:49 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Nilsen
So as long as there is no guaratnees its pointless to do your best?

Yes im advocating that a person or group is to be held accountable. They are already. If some guy from here sprayes a residential area with a machine gun going for that one dude in the window and kills many innocent folks he will be promptly prosecuted. I bet that applies for US soldier using excessive force too.


As far as the first statement is concerned: Nothing in life is guaranteed but I would never advocate that efforts in any endeaver are pointless. I don't believe I even implied that.

There is what would be considered reasonable care and caution on a field of battle but you know as well as I that when events on the battlefield get out of hand and one is fighting for one's life, caution is generaly thrown to the wind. I would not want to see every serviceperson, regardless of nationality, personaly responsible for any possible collateral damage regardless of situation. No one can fight a war that way.

We could make life simpler for everyone if we just banned war completely. Of course you and I both know that would be impossible. It would require restructuring of the human DNA.

Mark
MarkAT

Keep the shiny side up!

Offline Gunslinger

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 10084
Banning cluster munitions.
« Reply #35 on: November 18, 2006, 06:52:06 PM »
Nils if it makes you feel better the USAF trains every single member extensivly on UXO.  There's many teams in Iraq right now as we speak who's sole job is to take care of UXO.

Offline RedRadr

  • Zinc Member
  • *
  • Posts: 80
Re: Banning cluster munitions.
« Reply #36 on: November 18, 2006, 06:56:50 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Nilsen
I say its about time they go the same way as anti-personel landmines..

What do the rest of you think?.

I think you must be a really, really good person to want this...superior to
 just about everyone...   my hat

Offline Mark Luper

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1626
Banning cluster munitions.
« Reply #37 on: November 18, 2006, 07:02:37 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Gunslinger
Nils if it makes you feel better the USAF trains every single member extensivly on UXO.  There's many teams in Iraq right now as we speak who's sole job is to take care of UXO.


Gun,

What is UXO?

Mark
MarkAT

Keep the shiny side up!

Offline Irwink!

  • Nickel Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 583
      • http://msn.com
Re: Re: Re: Banning cluster munitions.
« Reply #38 on: November 18, 2006, 07:06:29 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Nilsen
So who will decide when and were they can be used, and should they be made responsible for removing the duds later?


I have no short and sweet answers to your questions to offer. I will however go back to the rules of so-called civilized warfare that I referred to. That is a collosal contradiction in terms. War is insanity on a massive scale. Do I sometimes condone it myself? Yes, I'm a human living in the 21st century living amongst others of the same kind who still resort to force of arms to advance their agenda or to defend it from a like-minded aggressor advancing his own. It'll sure be swell when we advance as a society enough that warfare is only something written about in history books. Too bad that's a utopian vision that if it ever materializes will do so long, long after we are all dust. Look at the forum in which we're posting - the Aces High BB. A lot, probably most of us including myself originally came here to play a war game. If we can't be engaged in a real war we'll do so vicariously through a game by choice. We still celebrate war. That is the current state of human "civilization".

I'm starting to digress....

War is messy, people die - they always have, they always will for as long as armed conflict persists. The purpose of any type of avanced weaponry is to shorten a conflict by hastening victory and in so doing REDUCE casualties - when all is said and done to REDUCE CASUALTIES. I don't like the way it works. Maybe it would "seem" better if all the casualties happened at once ala Hiroshima or the firebombings of Dresden, Hamburgh, and Tokyo. Then we can just  quickly get it over with and start to collectively forget about it till the next one comes along. Its a little more tidy and easier to live with than seeing casualties that come in dribs and drabs here and there after the cessation of immediate hostilities no matter that TOTAL CASUALTIES are reduced. Its an established fact that people rapidly become desensitized to mass casualities. They don't have to think about individual names, faces, combatant or civilian, man, woman or child. I don't see how we can sanely debate how to kill each other in a more "civilized" fashion.

I think I need some of that Johnnie Walker now. I'm getting depressed. Then maybe I'll pop into one of the game arenas and see how many kills I can get...

Offline Hornet33

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2487
Banning cluster munitions.
« Reply #39 on: November 18, 2006, 07:12:57 PM »
How about the civilians use a little COMMON SENSE and get out of the way when the insurgents and terrorist start setting up in their backyard and make their homes a target. The way I look at this is if the civilians are still there then they are supporting the bad guys and that makes them bad guys. Kill them all. Children getting killed?? Maybe their parents should be responsible for the safety of their kids and get them away from the fighting.

Use all the cluster bombs we can. Hell yeah drop them suckers.
AHII Con 2006, HiTech, "This game is all about pissing off the other guy!!"

Offline Maverick

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 13901
Banning cluster munitions.
« Reply #40 on: November 18, 2006, 07:13:31 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Mark Luper
Gun,

What is UXO?

Mark


UneXploded Ordinance. In other words the duds mentioned earlier.
DEFINITION OF A VETERAN
A Veteran - whether active duty, retired, national guard or reserve - is someone who, at one point in their life, wrote a check made payable to "The United States of America", for an amount of "up to and including my life."
Author Unknown

Offline Mark Luper

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1626
Banning cluster munitions.
« Reply #41 on: November 18, 2006, 07:25:53 PM »
Thank you Maverick.:)
MarkAT

Keep the shiny side up!

Offline indy007

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3294
Banning cluster munitions.
« Reply #42 on: November 18, 2006, 07:57:04 PM »
Depends. AP clusters onto civilian areas is a bad thing.

A CBU-97 with BLU-108/B's is a great thing to have if you ever plan to fight tanks again though. No reason to ban that weapon.

Offline Excel1

  • Nickel Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 614
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Banning cluster munitions.
« Reply #43 on: November 18, 2006, 09:23:11 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Gunslinger
You say this as if we have monsters in our military operating with impunity from any type of responsibilitys at all.

Did you know that for every General fighting there's a JAG lawyer right next to him telling him what's legal and not.



A military that needs lawyers to keep it from going ape watermelon has got serious self restraint problems.

Lawyers only give legal interpretations, which may be at odds with the moral values the military is supposedly trying to uphold.

As an example, the justification for the roasting of civilians along with enemy combatants by using white phosphorus in an urban environment (Falluja 2004) is ok as long as it's legal. It may have been legal, but the initial US denial of using  WP spoke volumes.

Offline Gunslinger

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 10084
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Banning cluster munitions.
« Reply #44 on: November 18, 2006, 09:26:24 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Excel1
A military that needs lawyers to keep it from going ape watermelon has got serious self restraint problems.

Lawyers only give legal interpretations, which may be at odds with the moral values the military is supposedly trying to uphold.

As an example, the justification for the roasting of civilians along with enemy combatants by using white phosphorus in an urban environment (Falluja 2004) is ok as long as it's legal. It may have been legal, but the initial US denial of using  WP spoke volumes.


WP usage is nothing new in the military.

of course WP and cluster munitions are apples and oranges.
« Last Edit: November 18, 2006, 09:28:53 PM by Gunslinger »