Banning cluster munitions.

[Nilsen]

Originally posted by lazs2
nelson... so you would be content if we banned cluster munitions but had a way to send just as many munitions into an area delivered one at a time?

lazs

The bomblets in most of them are dumb and lands within a sertain "grid". If something is there to hit or not is irrelevant to the bomblet.

One would never randomly throw a gps guided shell/bomb at an area. Guided rounds are by design made to hit the target they are aimed at. Lets say you now use an MLRS rocket to take out a number of soft or hard APCs, jeeps or whatever over there somewere, you could just as easy send 7 gps/infrared or whatever (you get the point) rounds at those 7 specific targets. Oh yes.. it will cost you alot more $$$ to do so but who cares about that really.

[Nilsen]

Originally posted by Maverick
I think that there are refinements in cluster munitions that reduce  significantly the number of duds, if any. This is particularly true if you want to have your forces occupy the same ground once the previous tenents stop objecting.

FWIW there are also duds with conventional artillery and air dropped munitions as well. They are just much bigger booms than a cluster submunition.

As to the nuke statement. If you don't think a nuke belongs on a battlefield, where exactly would you expect to use one? Oh and BTW there are contingency plans for that very thing. I hope as fervently as you, that it never comes to that situation.

They are doing what they can to reduce the number of duds, but it will still be at about 0,5-1% duds.

Yes there is duds with "conventional" bombs and shells, but they are alot bigger as you said and they are alot easyer to find and clean up later... the numbers left on a battlefield is not even close the number of small bomblets. The bomblets often are found and played with by kids.

I dont expect nukes to be used anywere at all.

[Nilsen]

Originally posted by Maverick
I think that there are refinements in cluster munitions that reduce  significantly the number of duds, if any. This is particularly true if you want to have your forces occupy the same ground once the previous tenents stop

Here are some interesting quotes from US personel on the use of clusters

http://www.stopclustermunitions.org/info.asp?c=14&id=36

[Maverick]

Originally posted by Nilsen
They are doing what they can to reduce the number of duds, but it will still be at about 0,5-1% duds.

Yes there is duds with "conventional" bombs and shells, but they are alot bigger as you said and they are alot easyer to find and clean up later... the numbers left on a battlefield is not even close the number of small bomblets. The bomblets often are found and played with by kids.

I dont expect nukes to be used anywere at all.

For things that are so easy to find, they still seem to pop up on occasion in places like London and in Europe from over a half century ago. They had metal detectors back then too but didn't catch all of the big booms in all that time, did they.

As to the dud percentage you mentioned, please let me know where you got it from.

As to your expectations, I doubt you are in any position now or in the future to have your expectations carry much weight.

[Nilsen]

Originally posted by Maverick
For things that are so easy to find, they still seem to pop up on occasion in places like London and in Europe from over a half century ago. They had metal detectors back then too but didn't catch all of the big booms in all that time, did they.

As to the dud percentage you mentioned, please let me know where you got it from.

As to your expectations, I doubt you are in any position now or in the future to have your expectations carry much weight.

The % I get from the most modern systems available today and the fact that if you can find any product that has a failure rate lower than this you will be good.

No matter how high tech things ever get, there will always be things that makes some of them fail.

I know that they find bombs from ww2 still and they do it here too, but so what?
0,5% of 100000 rounds of "normal" shells is still a heck of alot less than 0,5% of 100000000. I bet that folks are much less drawn to tinkering with a large shell than they are to fiddeling with a smaller object.

[Nashwan]

Where they using the new MK82s or SFWs? If not I rest my case.

No idea. They were a mix of MLRS rockets, artillery shells and cluster bombs.

I know that they find bombs from ww2 still and they do it here too, but so what?
0,5% of 100000 rounds of "normal" shells is still a heck of alot less than 0,5% of 100000000.

That's one of the main points. Israel fired over 4 million submunitions into Lebanon in a matter of days towards the end of the fighting.

For things that are so easy to find, they still seem to pop up on occasion in places like London and in Europe from over a half century ago.

Larger shells and bombs are likely to bury themselves if they don't explode. Left underground they rarely trouble anyone.

[Tac]

instead of removing cluster munitions they should simply fix them.

take 50% of them and replace the explosive warheads with napalm warheads.

the other 50% are filled with s'mores.

[zorstorer]

Originally posted by Nilsen
Here are some interesting quotes from US personel on the use of clusters

http://www.stopclustermunitions.org/info.asp?c=14&id=36

What in the world are Mennonites doing with a Army FM?

**edit**

Why not just bring back WP, dud rate of 0, expose it to air and there you go.

[Vulcan]

Originally posted by Nilsen
Here are some interesting quotes from US personel on the use of clusters

http://www.stopclustermunitions.org/info.asp?c=14&id=36

Nilsen did you look into the stats on the report of the first link you posted?

[x0847Marine]

Originally posted by Hornet33
back at ya. Class 40-90 1/31st

Now I have seen a fin failure on a rocket. That was during DS and it was a night shoot. The rocket came out of the tube and then spiraled straight up in the air. Never found out where that one landed

When I was at Ft. Sill, 88-89ish, a Guard unit put an arty round into town (Lawton, OK) and blew the snot out of a parking lot. For you cannon cockers, my Marine MOS 0847 = 93Fox.. without us your rounds would'nt know what to do..lol

To save you the time of looking it up; USMC MOS 0847 Artillery Meteorological Man.. which I might add is the best job in artellery.

[Nilsen]

Originally posted by Vulcan
Nilsen did you look into the stats on the report of the first link you posted?

You mean the 98% thing?

[Vulcan]

Originally posted by Nilsen
You mean the 98% thing?

Yeah, when someone has to tweak the stats to suit their point of view doesn't that cast some doubt with you?

[Dinger]

I'm not a redleg, but people assume I am.
Years ago, a marine asked if I could implement a "series 101" SEAD mission (Basically, a SEAD interrupted, IIRC -2 to -1 and +1 to +2) in a game. For some reason I was crazy enough to do it, complete with the appropriate STANAG voice transmissions to call it in (or any variant thereof). But he was crazy enough to volunteer for a second tour of Iraq. IED wired to a 152mm round got him and seven other guys.
Dunno, just kinda bums me out.

[Gunslinger]

Originally posted by Tac
instead of removing cluster munitions they should simply fix them.

take 50% of them and replace the explosive warheads with napalm warheads.

the other 50% are filled with s'mores.

True genius!

[red26]

This is the way I look at it and yes its cold hearted but , If a country attacks or starts trouble and we have to bring our troops that many miles to fight then what ever happens to that country's people after we move out happens. The other country should have never messed or pi$@ed us off. And the rest is just war people get killed long after its over thats just the way it is.


Hey how about we use the old BEE HIVE rounds like my father taked about?A Artty round with a bunch of sharp dart like things in it insted of cluster? I dont think that would be any safe'er at all.


BEEHIVE: An anti-personnel, direct-fire shell carrying several thousand small steel darts or 'fleshettes'. Each fleshette is about one inch long and has the appearance of a 1" finishing nail with the nailhead stamped into the form of 4 fins, similar to an arrow. A typical 105mm BEEHIVE has 6000 darts, 3000 of which are loaded pointing forward, 3000 pointing backward. The shell is fired directly at advancing enemy formations similar to an aimed shotgun. At about 50 meters from the muzzle, the round ejects the darts toward the enemy with a medium hard ejecting charge. The forward loaded darts spread into a 45 degree fan traveling forward, while the rear facing darts are forced by their fins to flip around in flight. As the darts flip, they loop away from the GT line, forming a fan of about 60 degrees. Thus 6000 darts fly in a 60 degree fan at about 2000 feet per second toward the enemy. The effect on troops in the open is devastating. Enemy troops about 100 meters from the firing cannon may be pierced by 10-20 darts, those closer may receive 100 or more penetrating stab wounds similar to those inflicted by an icepick.