Hope this is wrong

[lazs2]

yep... I would love some liberal here to explain how they can tollerate such an intolerant and backwards religion like the muslim one...

I would think that jon stewart for instance would be making fun of burkas and showing obscene pictures of the prophet  and such...

That liberal womens rights groups would be spending all their time condeming the religion.

Why is that not happening?   chicken?

lazs

[lukster]

Originally posted by Golfer
I don't like it asks if you're a Muslim first or an American first.

The whole separation of church and state has gotten lost somewhere and "American" in that survey is a religion.

You can be an American and a Muslim at the same time.

There was a choice "both equally" to that question. Not so many chose it.

[lukster]

The liberals (who I think would find an Islamic government oppressive in the extreme) don't believe that Islam can usurp the existing American liberality. Those who reject so vehemently Christianity may find they do so with Islam at far greater peril.

I could be wrong. There might be a nation in this world wherein the majority of the populace is Muslim yet the society and goverment are liberal?

[Mace2004]

Originally posted by Golfer
I don't like it asks if you're a Muslim first or an American first.

The whole separation of church and state has gotten lost somewhere and "American" in that survey is a religion.

You can be an American and a Muslim at the same time.

You've got a point, in the US you can be both, at least that's the way the Constitution sees it.  But, let's turn it around.  In an Islamic republic or the Caliphate, Islam is the government and all law is Allah's, there is no such thing as "man's" law and non-secular government is illigitimate.  The point to the question in the survey is to ask where Muslim loyalties lie but since Islam ultimately believes religion and government are one in the same the question is non-sensical.

[Mace2004]

Originally posted by lukster
The liberals (who I think would find an Islamic government oppressive in the extreme) don't believe that Islam can usurp the existing American liberality. Those who reject so vehemently Christianity may find they do so with Islam at far greater peril.

I could be wrong. There might be a nation in this world wherein the majority of the populace is Muslim yet the society and goverment are liberal?

No, there isn't, at least in the American or Western understanding of "liberal".  Western liberalism generally means you can do pretty much whatever you want and no one is allowed to "judge"  you or impose their religion or morality on you.  This is diametrically opposed to Islam.  Christians may tell you that what you're doing is wrong and sometimes will attempt to pass laws to stop what they view is immoral but these actions are tempered by democracy unlike Islam.  Shari'a law, since it is Allah's will, is absolute, you do not get a say.  There is no "live and let live" in Islam.

[Momus--]

Originally posted by bj229r
And large percentages also believe Muslims have the right to commit violence against Americans, both overseas and in this country.

Come again? By the very figures you quote, 89% think that attacks on US civilians are not justifiable, and those that think attacks against US troops overseas are not justifiable are also in the majority (50%), rising to 68% thinking such attacks are not justified in the US.  Also, 75% think that attacks against US government officials are not justifiable.

[Mace2004]

Originally posted by Momus--
Come again? By the very figures you quote, 89% think that attacks on US civilians are not justifiable, and those that think attacks against US troops overseas are not justifiable are also in the majority (50%), rising to 68% thinking such attacks are not justified in the US.  Also, 75% think that attacks against US government officials are not justifiable.

The point he's making is not the percentage of those that don't think this stuff is acceptable, the issue is the percentage that DO:

All these percentages are of those who expressed an opinion:

Is American at war with Islam:  Yes 72%
Attacks against US civilians acceptable: Yes 8%
Attacks against US military overseas is acceptable: Yes 47%
Attacks agsinst US military in the US is acceptable:  Yes 25%
Attacks against US government officials is acceptable:   Yes 18%

I'd say those numbers are pretty significant considering these are supposedly US citizens.

[Charon]

The poll was of American Muslims.

Yes, but more accurately, the Poll was of: The Islamic Society of North America (a radical Islamic front group).

So it represents the view of about 300 radical muslims living in the US (with a population of 300 million, and an islamic population of perhaps 7 million). Hardly surprising. I Imagine you could easily find 300 Jews, Christians or Hindus that Identify with their religion more than their nation, and that have extreme positions. Does Fred Phelps represent all Christians, or even evangelical Christians for that matter? Hell, you can find 300 pasty skinned Internet conspiracy theorists (if not 3,000 or more) that think the same way regarding 9/11.

FWIW I saw the leader of one of the major Muslim groups (can't remember which one, but it's based in Chicago -- CAIR perhaps) on a BBC "hardball" type program who was more than willing to draw a distinction between an immature Muslim community (such as that in Britain) and a mature community such as that in the US where there is a real effort to assimilate with the communtiy at large. He pulled no punches concering radicals, and handled some very tough questioning, very well.

I'll start worrying when we start to have the same community issues muslims are generating in Europe.

Charon

[Mace2004]

Is the Islamic Society of North America a radical front group?  I'm not doubting you and we have lots in the US that are, I just hadn't heard that it ISNA was more radical than most other groups.  CAIR for instance has been a constant apologist for Islamic extremism and has been linked with HAMAS.

[Charon]

According to the poster it is. And, it represents the view of 300 individuals total, again according to the poster.

As for CAIR -- I'm not sure if that was the group the leader belonged to, just a guess (but I believe it was). I watched the show in passing while in Germany and wasn't taking notes at the time. I did note the same speaker was interviewed earlier in the International Herald Tribune and was in the UK meeting with European muslim leaders. He pertty much came out and said that muslims have to come out of the 14th century and get with the modern world -- especially those communities in Europe.

As for links to HAMAS, he addressed that saying he disagreed with the terrorist elements but found it hard not to support the hospitals etc. when there were no alternatives to serve those communities. His overall message was not positive to radicals by any stretch of the imagination, was anti Jihad and pro integration into the general culture of the West if you are living in the West. For example, where wearing burkas is concerend (a big issue in Europe and one he was grilled on) he supported the general individual right, as I recall, but saw the real secuirty concerns and the degree with which it creates problems with assimilation in society. Really, a call for Muslims to have some common sense on the issues and to work as part of the system instead of outside of the system.

He seemed very moderate.

Charon

[Maverick]

Originally posted by Golfer
I don't like it asks if you're a Muslim first or an American first.

The whole separation of church and state has gotten lost somewhere and "American" in that survey is a religion.

You can be an American and a Muslim at the same time.

The survey didn't state that they had to be one or the other. It did not specify one over the other. It ASKED what the RESPONDENTS opinion was. I found the answers to be rather what I expected. You could have gone to a Hispanic neighborhood on the South side of Tucson or better yet in Nogsales AZ. and substituted Mexican for muslim in the same questions and gotten pretty much the same answers.

Polls are not a neutral item to determine an overall average opinion when the selected pool of respondants is in itself skewed or the questions are skewed either.

1. Are you a U.S. Citizen? (If no, then don’t fill out survey.)
YES - 307
NO - 0

2. Do you consider yourself to be a Muslim first, an American first, or both equally?
MUSLIM FIRST - 214
AMERICAN FIRST - 4
BOTH EQUALLY - 86
UNDECIDED - 3

3. Is the American government at war with the religion of Islam?
YES - 208
NO - 79
UNDECIDED - 20

4. Can a good Muslim be a good American?
YES - 292
NO - 11
UNDECIDED - 4


In the case of the questions I find that they do  not indicate a specific bias per se, however the selected pool of respondents certainly is not going to be representative of the overall American population.  The respondents were a specifically targeted population, wtf did you expect for answers? The bias of the population is rather expected to be there given the perseptions of the populations. Had you taken the survey to say, Oral Roberts University at the base of his "tower of power" would you expect to get the saem freaking answers?

[bj229r]

Originally posted by Maverick
The survey didn't state that they had to be one or the other. It did not specify one over the other. It ASKED what the RESPONDENTS opinion was. I found the answers to be rather what I expected. You could have gone to a Hispanic neighborhood on the South side of Tucson or better yet in Nogsales AZ. and substituted Mexican for muslim in the same questions and gotten pretty much the same answers.

Polls are not a neutral item to determine an overall average opinion when the selected pool of respondants is in itself skewed or the questions are skewed either.

1. Are you a U.S. Citizen? (If no, then don’t fill out survey.)
YES - 307
NO - 0

2. Do you consider yourself to be a Muslim first, an American first, or both equally?
MUSLIM FIRST - 214
AMERICAN FIRST - 4
BOTH EQUALLY - 86
UNDECIDED - 3

3. Is the American government at war with the religion of Islam?
YES - 208
NO - 79
UNDECIDED - 20

4. Can a good Muslim be a good American?
YES - 292
NO - 11
UNDECIDED - 4


In the case of the questions I find that they do  not indicate a specific bias per se, however the selected pool of respondents certainly is not going to be representative of the overall American population.  The respondents were a specifically targeted population, wtf did you expect for answers? The bias of the population is rather expected to be there given the perseptions of the populations. Had you taken the survey to say, Oral Roberts University at the base of his "tower of power" would you expect to get the saem freaking answers?

The whole point was to find out what AMERICAN Muslims think, although I have NO idea what would comprise a valid cross-section of U.S. Muslims (That being said, I think it can safely be assumed that most U.S. Muslims are former 'African Americans', and probably had some anti-US bias before converting--Ive been in a LOT of prisons, and the ever-growing Muslim population doesn't look much like Richie Cunningham:lol)

Muslims For A Safe America conducted a survey at the Islamic Society of North America’s 43rd Annual Convention in Chicago from September 1, 2006 to September 4, 2006.

307 Muslims who are American citizens participated in the survey at the Muslims For A Safe America booth at ISNA.

The purpose of the survey was to better understand the views of American Muslims on issues relating to Islam, Muslims, and American national security. It is important to let Muslims articulate their varied opinions on these issues in order to encourage dialogue within the Muslim community and with the rest of American society..

[Maverick]

They didn't really go out and look for the "average American Muslim" with this poll. The start of the thread kinda nixes that premise doesn't it.

 At the annual convention of the Islamic Society of North America (a radical Islamic front group

One poll with a specifically targeted admitedly SKEWED population. Hello!!!!

[Red Tail 444]

OK so are you (posters, in general)
Are you an American first, or a Christian first?

Answer carefully, now!

[VOR]

Well, American since I'm not Christian. Now what?