ki84's are a pain

[rimfirematt]

If there is one aircraft that seems to consitently get the best of me it is that stinking KI84!
Ive read sodas evaluation of it. Anyone else got some tips to share for fighting against this thing?
I mostly fly the f4u's, the A model being my current ship.

[Krusty]

This would probably be better in the help and training forum.

Ki84's enemy is speed and alt. Don't try a simple turn fight with one because chances are he'll out turn you. Speed is its enemy. It performs worse at high speed, and at around 450+ it sheds control surfaces. Keep your speed high and go for angles if you can but don't bleed your E for that "one shot" unless you know you're going to kill him.

Ki84 is an uber plane, don't forget it. It's like going up against a better turning Spit16.

[Saxman]

That's why I think the Ki-84 should be perked LONG before the Spixteen. Fortunately, the 84 isn't as ludicrously overused.

Anyway, rim, as Krusty said stay fast. Use the Hog's advantage in E-retention (GOTTA love that mass) to zoom on him. Avoid flat turns and use more vertical, especially High Yo's and pursuit rolls if he breaks on you. What sometimes works if he's behind you and you have a little separation is a tight climbing spiral to the left. He'll bleed out his E FAR faster than you will, then it's a matter of rolling over and dropping on him when he has to put his nose down. Use your flaps! This cannot be stressed enough for the Corsairs against ANY opponent. You can't drop them above 250mph, so generally you'll be in trouble against a Frank by that point, but they can give you just enough of a kick to haul that nose around for a shot.

Franks also appear worse about those instant course changes to throw off your shot than about any other plane in the set, so they can be very tough to hit, and when you do they don't fall apart like a Zeke or Spit, so expect to fire longer bursts once you get your shot.

Finally, if you have the altitude to work with and are out of option, point that big nose down and punch full power and WEP and dive for the deck. The F4U will clear 600mph and remain controllable. The Frank starts to fall apart around 450. You don't need a whole lot of math to figure the result if that 84 is foolish enough to try and follow.

[Krusty]

Meh, the spit16 is worse for high-end reasons. The Ki can beat most low and slow, but the spixteen can pull UFO moves in the vertical, climb almost 1000fpm more than the Ki, rolls like a 190, can dive with you, catch up to you in a dive, and...

 I was zooming in at 500mph to the tail of a spit16. He was level, flying directly away. As I get to 700 he breaks up HARD, so hard I see him top-down planform as I blow past (I'd have had him if I wasn't in a K-4, stupid 30mm) he pulls this 6+ G completely vertical loop, comes around, and levels out, and CATCHES a 109K-4 doing 500+.

THAT is why the spit16 needs to be perked.

[Saxman]

No, that's why the Spixteen needs to be FIXED. There's some BS going on with that FM to be sure.

And I'd like to know where the HELL they found that DU to armor the Merlin with. I've had it pouring 100+ rounds into 'em only to watch the Spit or Pony fly off without engine damage, while one ping of a .50 cal knocks out my R-2800.

[Krusty]

Amen

[llama]

I've been flying Corsairs and Hellcats almost exclusively for 5 months now, and can offer the following:

KI's HATE speed. Parts fall off. Controls get unresponsive. If you have a hi-speed merge and no one else is around, I find dropping the gear and flaps sooner than later will help you get him in your sights much faster than he can get you in his because of this.

Acceleration in a KI is not bad, but diving, it can't touch the Corsairs. If I get one on my 6 and have the alt, I'll point the corsair low and speed up to 450+, and then start rolling to change directions, and then pull up. The KI can NOT roll well at these speeds, and may not be able to pull up either. (IF you make a lawn dart out of him, try to be nice on channel 200).

Anyway, once you've rolled out of plane with him and pull up, keep zoom climbing up. You'll wind up MUCH higher than he can zoom climb. Then its "game on." Go get him.

Also, the KI is not exactly a great guns platform. Large cowl and a low rate of fire make it fairly easy to miss a jinking plane. Gentle jinking while extending away works effectively - much more so than running away from spixteens.

-Llama

[Reynolds]

Originally posted by Krusty
Meh, the spit16 is worse for high-end reasons. The Ki can beat most low and slow, but the spixteen can pull UFO moves in the vertical, climb almost 1000fpm more than the Ki, rolls like a 190, can dive with you, catch up to you in a dive, and...

 I was zooming in at 500mph to the tail of a spit16. He was level, flying directly away. As I get to 700 he breaks up HARD, so hard I see him top-down planform as I blow past (I'd have had him if I wasn't in a K-4, stupid 30mm) he pulls this 6+ G completely vertical loop, comes around, and levels out, and CATCHES a 109K-4 doing 500+.

THAT is why the spit16 needs to be perked.

500 mph+ in a 109K4. A Spit 16 JUST TOOK OFF I watched him clear the ground from 10k, not wanting to be mean and vulch, and from what is now closer to 5k and 550mph+ I begin a climb, and the spit 16 which JUST TOOK OFF caught and killed me in that climb. THats BS. He caught that 5k alt. advantage like nothing, ignored the fact that I was over 300mph faster than him, and nailed me. To this day I dont know how he did it...

[Husky01]

<--thinks he can beat Reynolds 109 of any kind in a jug

[Lusche]

Originally posted by Reynolds
To this day I dont know how he did it...

Film it and you will know...

[Wolfala]

Originally posted by  
500 mph+ in a 109K4. A Spit 16 JUST TOOK OFF I watched him clear the ground from 10k, not wanting to be mean and vulch, and from what is now closer to 5k and 550mph+ I begin a climb, and the spit 16 which JUST TOOK OFF caught and killed me in that climb. THats BS. He caught that 5k alt. advantage like nothing, ignored the fact that I was over 300mph faster than him, and nailed me. To this day I dont know how he did it...

Dude was towing a 2S6 with the 30mm and SA-18s on it. But its got the Romulian Cloak technology.

But seriously, I feel yr pain. I fly 47's pretty much exclusively and generally against a 16 it turns into a 1 pass and haul bellybutton kinda deal. But that 1 pass generally does it. If he's got altitude, I try to stay innocious.

[Krusty]

Go easy on Reynolds, I've had that happen to me before as well. A spit16 rolls on a runway, and I fly by at LEAST 5k over him, doing 400+ mph, he pulls off the runway into a climb, I nose up and zoom up (with 5k already to start with) and what the frak do I see but a spit16 CLOSING on me from below, very fast. It's happened more than once. Usually they're too stupid to know what they're doing other than "point nose at enemy, spray", and I can still get away from them, but the fact that they have repeatedly done this is total BS.

[Saxman]

My favorite story is of a Spit I was diving on full power from about 5000ft above him. My airspeed is EASILY exceeding 450mph as I pull up (still above him into a zoom over his head to avoid the HO, as he had pulled up and was now climbing hard). My airspeed still reads ~450mph as I enter my zoom. I look back, and the guy is 600 out and CLOSING on me.

WTFH?! The only way he could have followed (I did NOT pull straight up full vertical, angle was less than 45 degree climb) was if he'd pulled into an Immelmann immediately after merge, which would have killed most of his E.

Even accepting the instant acceleration those things are capable of, I'm STILL over 400mph, and the Spixteen tops out around 350 LEVEL flight, much less in a climb.

[humble]

The Ki-84 is a much tougher nut to crack for a hog then a 16. The 16 is pretty easy to beat straight up in an angles fight. The Ki however is a different story. The real key is to avoid getting slow enough for the ki to deploy its flaps at the wrong time. The Ki is probably the only plane I run into that seems to totally outperform the hog at 80 mph but has good speed and acceleration. At very low speed the ki can just climb away or outturn the hog.

The real key to the ki is to keep it at arms length when possible until your positive E....then you need to fight the plane from above till you can go angles with some degree of success.

hog vs Ki-84


I also included a spit16 clip from over the weekend. I rarely lose a 1 on 1 with a spit 16 (spit 9 & 8 much tougher). This is a bit better in that the spitty doesnt make the mistake of going all angles but tries to E fight then convert. One of the better flown spit 16's I've run into....

Spit 16

No question at the end he was in a world of hurt and responding to other cons....but by then I was squarely on his 6 and you can see the hog has no problems staying with him.

[Saxman]

Actually, I find the Spit VIII a fairly easy kill as Spits go (the 14 being the easiest). Spit 16 and 9 are the toughest for me.