Author Topic: Combat flaps  (Read 2482 times)

Offline Benny Moore

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Combat flaps
« Reply #30 on: December 19, 2006, 09:29:03 PM »
Perhaps, but no more for the United States than for any other country.  And as I said, dogfighting was also common (again, for all countries).

Offline Stoney74

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« Reply #31 on: December 20, 2006, 01:05:27 PM »
Quote from the P-38F tactical trials:

"It would then take the P-38F sometime, if ever, to overcome this initial disadvantage. The P-38F’s best maneuver against all types tested was to climb rapidly out of range and then turn and commence the combat from a superior altitude. Once gaining this altitude it should retain it, making passes and climbing again rapidly. Knowledge of the local enemy fighter performance will dictate the tactics to be used by the P-38F in the combat zone. It is doubtful if this aircraft will meet in combat any type of enemy aircraft in which close-in fighting will be its best offensive action."

Offline Ack-Ack

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« Reply #32 on: December 20, 2006, 01:17:29 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Stoney74
It is doubtful if this aircraft will meet in combat any type of enemy aircraft in which close-in fighting will be its best offensive action."



While it was not preferred or officially sanctioned tactic, Benny is correct.  P-38s did engage in close in combat if necessary.  The story posted by Guppy is testiment to that.


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Offline Benny Moore

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« Reply #33 on: December 20, 2006, 03:37:48 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Stoney74
Quote from the P-38F tactical trials:

"It would then take the P-38F sometime, if ever, to overcome this initial disadvantage. The P-38F’s best maneuver against all types tested was to climb rapidly out of range and then turn and commence the combat from a superior altitude. Once gaining this altitude it should retain it, making passes and climbing again rapidly. Knowledge of the local enemy fighter performance will dictate the tactics to be used by the P-38F in the combat zone. It is doubtful if this aircraft will meet in combat any type of enemy aircraft in which close-in fighting will be its best offensive action."


Which production block P-38F was this?  I ask because the early P-38Fs did not have the maneuver stop on the Fowler flaps.  Without flaps, they could not quite out-turn the Me-109, their common opponent.  After the maneuver stop was introduced, the Pilots Manual was updated to recommend using the maneuver flaps when maneuvering below 250 M.P.H.

Offline Stoney74

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« Reply #34 on: December 20, 2006, 08:00:30 PM »
Benny, during the trials the aggressor aircraft were P-39's, P-40's, P-47's, and P-51's.  I have no idea what production block was tested.  The report mentioned that the P-38 was at a disadvantage due to the slow roll rate, and that initially, all the other aircraft outturned the P-38, even though once the turn was established, the P-38 outturned them all.  The declaration to not "turn fight" was a factor of roll rate, and had nothing to do with a tighter turn radius or flap use.

I never meant that NO U.S. pilot ever dogfought an opponent during the war.  In fact, I can think of two notables off the top of my head:  McGuire and Kearby, both of which were killed "dogfighting".  Another interesting phenomenon is U.S. and German gun camera footage from the ETO is almost always from a 6 o'clock kill position.  That leads me to believe (although it may be annecdotal) that most kills were not from dogfighting where you would tend to see much more deflection shots.  My statement was that the accepted tactics in all theaters regardless of airframe was one of hit and run.  U.S planes were, with some early exceptions, across the board heavier, faster, and had better high-speed handling characteristics than Axis aircraft and most other Allied aircraft.  To not use hit and run (aka BnZ) tactics were to sacrifice the advantages they possessed over their enemy, starting with the AVG in China before the war even began for America.  Most interviews with successful American fighter pilots in the war testify to this as accepted doctrine.

Offline Benny Moore

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« Reply #35 on: December 21, 2006, 04:14:00 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Stoney74
Benny, during the trials the aggressor aircraft were P-39's, P-40's, P-47's, and P-51's.  I have no idea what production block was tested.  The report mentioned that the P-38 was at a disadvantage due to the slow roll rate, and that initially, all the other aircraft outturned the P-38, even though once the turn was established, the P-38 outturned them all.  The declaration to not "turn fight" was a factor of roll rate, and had nothing to do with a tighter turn radius or flap use.


I find that very, very interesting.  I've always been led to believe that the P-40 was a very good turning machine.  It out-turned the Me-109, and it was supposed to out-turn the Spitfire, too.  Do you have a copy of that report you could send me?

By the way, if the P-38F was beating P-40s in sustained turns, then it must be the P-38F with the maneuver stop.  Without flaps, the P-38 barely outturned the P-47 and the FW-190.

As for U.S.A.A.F. pilots who were famous for dogfighting, I can name a few without looking them up.  Arthur Heiden, Irv Ethell, Dick Bong, John Lowell, and Bud Anderson all were known for dogfighting enemy fighters.
« Last Edit: December 21, 2006, 04:22:40 AM by Benny Moore »

Offline Stoney74

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« Reply #36 on: December 21, 2006, 09:19:22 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Benny Moore
As for U.S.A.A.F. pilots who were famous for dogfighting, I can name a few without looking them up.  Arthur Heiden, Irv Ethell, Dick Bong, John Lowell, and Bud Anderson all were known for dogfighting enemy fighters.


As for the performance reports, read to your hearts content at http://www.spitfireperformance.com

As for this discussion, I just realized that I'm getting suckered into a dogfight, and I'm going to use my excessive speed and altitude and disengage.

Offline Simaril

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« Reply #37 on: December 21, 2006, 10:04:00 AM »
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Originally posted by Kweassa
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Offline bozon

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« Reply #38 on: December 21, 2006, 11:20:51 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Simaril
<--- passes Bozon a hankerchief and some Purell (just in case)

That was a sloppy one...  :O
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Offline Apeking

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« Reply #39 on: December 22, 2006, 02:07:38 PM »
"Another interesting phenomenon is U.S. and German gun camera footage from the ETO is almost always from a 6 o'clock kill position. That leads me to believe (although it may be annecdotal) that most kills were not from dogfighting where you would tend to see much more deflection shots."

I pondered this myself. There is a compilation of Luftwaffe footage on Youtube that has some strangely passive American pilots. The Mustangs and P47s just sit there as they are pounded.

I came to the conclusion that we only get to see a tiny portion of existing gun camera, because the people who compiled the film - either for Youtube, or back in WW2 - concentrated on the really dramatic stuff, with parts flying off the target and tracers flashing past etc. Which means that we see lots of sustained dead-six tracking shots. As with all of history, we base our view of the past on material that was edited at the time, and has been edited since.

We rarely see the snapshot dogfighting footage, because the compilers of gun camera film assume that we would find it tedious to watch; the gun camera is fixed forwards and zoomed in, and the enemy aircraft would only briefly flash past every twenty seconds. By the time the winning pilot scores a kill he would already be manoeuvering away lest he becomes a victim himself.

From what I have read, sometimes a defeated aircraft did not look obviously dead; sometimes the losing aircraft would seem to "die" in the air even if it did not explode or break up. We would not see that kind of footage because the people who compile gun camera films would never think to show us.

Offline Stoney74

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« Reply #40 on: December 22, 2006, 05:08:45 PM »
I guess I should have continued my thought noting that a lot of Pacific footage shows deflections shots; though, your theory could still be true seeing how Japanese planes fireballed at the slightest damage, i.e. dramatic even though a quick shot.  And you're right, not a very scientific observation on my part...

Offline 1K3

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« Reply #41 on: December 23, 2006, 02:09:41 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Sombra
Ki 43 :


N1K1-J:

A unique feature of the N1K1-J was its set of combat flaps. Whereas flap extension was manually controlled on the Kyofu seaplane, the flaps on the landplane version had the ability automatically to change their angle in response to changes in g-forces during maneuvers. This automatic operation freed up the pilot from having to worry about his flaps during combat, and eliminated the possibility of a stall at an inopportune time.

[...]

However the aircraft had pleasant flying characteristics and the automatic combat flaps gave the aircraft exceptional maneuverability.


Will this ever be present in AH? I bet N1K2-J will have at least 3 graphical updates before we see this "low priority" feature.



I think the Automatic Combat flaps for N1K2-J are already modeled in the FM, bit not graphically.