Author Topic: Groundloops  (Read 5082 times)

Offline Widewing

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Groundloops
« Reply #75 on: December 18, 2006, 11:57:37 PM »
To avoid any tendency to ground loop, get into the habit of three-pointing your landings in all tail-draggers.

Once on the runway, ease back the stick to lock the tailwheel and apply brakes.

No sweat, no drama.....

My regards,

Widewing
My regards,

Widewing

YGBSM. Retired Member of Aces High Trainer Corps, Past President of the DFC, retired from flying as Tredlite.

Offline Benny Moore

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Groundloops
« Reply #76 on: December 19, 2006, 12:11:02 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Masherbrum
Words are very clear to me, you need help.


What part of the statement you quoted do you disagree with?  And what contrary evidence have you to offer?  I gave the Federal Aviation Administration's explanation as mine.

Offline BaldEagl

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Groundloops
« Reply #77 on: December 19, 2006, 12:11:52 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Benny Moore
I miss the challenge of avoiding groundloops.  It's much like the challenge of avoiding stalls.  I agree with you, however, that this simulator has unparalleled physics and flight models.  The only thing that can remotely compare is Lock On, and that's for jet fighters.  I'll try to stop complaining.


There's not much challenge in avoiding a stall, just keep your IAS up.  If thats the big challenge you're fighting a big uphill battle.
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Offline Golfer

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« Reply #78 on: December 19, 2006, 12:30:39 AM »
Lucky fella groundlooping his kitfox type thingie:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MAWa9uxtZj4

Then our friendly neighborhood...pilot...twangs his prop on landing

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Znx8CjueJqs

Offline BlauK

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Groundloops
« Reply #79 on: December 19, 2006, 12:59:56 AM »
Benny,
there definitely is a control for locking the tail wheel in AH. If you push the the throttle wide open e.g. in the 109 without first pulling once hard on the stick (=locking the tail wheel), you will notice how jumpy its rudder control will be.

With locked tail wheel one can control the rudder during take-off (while tail is still down) much easier than without.


  BlauKreuz - Lentolaivue 34      


Offline Stoney74

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Groundloops
« Reply #80 on: December 19, 2006, 01:00:13 AM »
I didn't really think it was possible in the game, but I actually ground looped a P-47N once after a fast wheelie landing.  Put a little rudder in accidentally and I was along for the ride.  The wheels never left the ground, and I never scraped a wing, but she went around almost 180 degrees--maybe about 120 or so.  It is possible, but I don't have film.  Now, everything is 3-point and problem solved.  In real life, the P-47 training film actually recommends a ground loop to stop the aircraft if you abort a takeoff or run out of runway.  I'll see if I can't replicate the scenario for the camera...

Offline Kweassa

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Groundloops
« Reply #81 on: December 19, 2006, 01:27:02 AM »
Quote
What part of the statement you quoted do you disagree with? And what contrary evidence have you to offer? I gave the Federal Aviation Administration's explanation as mine.


 Ahhh.. so he drags in the authority of the FAA.

 Okay, I'll bite.

 
 Where's the source? Let's see what the FAA has to say about it. Or do we have to go find it ourselves in a certain clandestine, conveniently unnamed book? Any website? Article? Journal? Report?

 Where did the FAA say what you are saying now?

Offline Masherbrum

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« Reply #82 on: December 19, 2006, 01:36:03 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Benny Moore
What part of the statement you quoted do you disagree with?  And what contrary evidence have you to offer?  I gave the Federal Aviation Administration's explanation as mine.


1.)  I've NEVER seen you in game.  

2.)  The FAA didn't have to land on the crappy field conditions the 109's, Spit's, and Hog's did in WWII.   Your "statement" has NO RELEVANCE to the "thought of combat field conditions" (i.e. = mud, wet grass, not to mention the Pacific fav. Marston Matting.)   So, you can sit here and debate all you want, you are WRONG, and need to arrive at that conclusion.
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Offline Benny Moore

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« Reply #83 on: December 19, 2006, 01:37:17 AM »
I already posted a lengthy quote from the Federal Aviation Administration site.  If you actually bothered to read my posts ...

Offline Masherbrum

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Groundloops
« Reply #84 on: December 19, 2006, 01:57:26 AM »
Last FACTUAL post from me:

Ground loops occur, when the aircraft is moving on the ground -- either taxiing, landing, or during takeoff. Ground loops can damage the undercarriage and wingtips of an aircraft. Several extreme incidents of ground loop have resulted in fatalities.

Ground loops may occur when landing on muddy ground, wet pavement or frozen surfaces especially if there are puddles or patches. They may also occur when an aircraft departs a paved surface, for example after an engine failure on the takeoff roll in a multi-engine aircraft. Another common cause is failure of a tire or wheel brake that causes a loss of directional control. They also commonly occur without outside influence due entirely to pilot error.

This has what I just said "all over it".    :aok   Good Luck in life.
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Offline Kweassa

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Groundloops
« Reply #85 on: December 19, 2006, 02:37:57 AM »
No, Moore.

 What you posted was about the FAA was how they define what a ground loop is, and the apparent symptoms of it.

Quote
"Any difference between the direction the airplane is traveling and the direction it is headed will produce a moment about the pivot point of the wheels, and the airplane will tend to swerve.


Quote
Loss of directional control may lead to an aggravated, uncontrolled, tight turn on the ground, or a ground loop. The combination of inertia acting on the CG and ground friction of the main wheels resisting it during the ground loop may cause the airplane to tip or lean enough for the outside wingtip to contact the ground, and may even impose a sideward force that could collapse the landing gear.


 Both of above has NOTHING to do with what you are arguing, nor does it have anything to do with your mal-informed attempt to redefine what a "ground loop" is according to your own misunderstanding.

 Many people have accurately pointed out that the above phenomena described does happen in this game, and quite frequently so. You think you're the only one who has an actual experience in planes? HT himself is a pilot, he's been in taildraggers, flew a P-51, and not to mention many more pilots both commercial and ex-military careers are playing this game as well. If they ever read the BBS I can bet both my nuts that they'd contradict every word you are saying.

 What you contend is that a GL does not exist in AH, which it does, and in order to fabricate your delusion you bring up this peculiar segment of an opinion which goes;


Quote
Moreover, a real groundloop cannot be controlled with rudder even if the wingtip is not touching the ground. You are pretending that not only is a groundloop caused by a wing dip, but that there is no groundloop without wing dipping. You have no idea what you're talking about.


Quote
At any time before you had dipped your wing, you could have stopped the yaw by adding opposite rudder. In a real groundloop, you cannot stop the yaw, even if the wing does not strike the ground. A ground loop is caused by inertia due to the center of gravity being behind the wheels. Once begun, it cannot be stopped.



 Your image of the ground loop, like so many things you've contended over these boards according to your "years of experiencing living as a flight-sim BBS troll", is a false one loosely based on reality, propagated by your own misunderstanding and bigotry.

 A ground loop is not a supernatural intervention of the devine. It can be stopped, and most pilots in the game both instinctively and actively take precautions to avoid it, hence its rarity in the game. The motion of a ground loop caused by both friction, torque, CG, and inertia of the plane is a physical one - and it is easily compensated by the use of both rudder and tail wheel locks.

 Your "scenario" is a myth you've created inside your mind. This "unstoppable" image of the ground loop is valid only after it has been aggravated enough to cause total instability in the yaw movement of the plane.




 So tell me, Moore.

 How can a tail dragger plane using low or smooth throttle setting, can just roll a few meters, swerve a few degrees left due to torque, and then just suddenly go into a tight turn by itself? The very premise of a taxiing slowly indicates a low throttle setting - hence low torque.

 The only instance where a plane might do what you've absurdly described in your scenario;

Quote
You are travelling down the runway at a fairly slow speed, and you allow your nose to swing several degrees to the left. You compensate with rudder, but it is too late; in spite of your holding full right rudder, the nose continues to swing left until the aircraft has completed a one hundred and eight degree turn, and is now travelling slowly backwards for a few seconds.


 .. is when a plane is inherently flawed at its design so its level balance is upset to either left or right side, thereby causing the weight to anchor on one of the main gears, and the plane pivots upon it. A recipro plane swerves because of propwash and torque - uncontrolled movement while ground level acceleration aggravates the inertia, and hence the "swerve".

 
 Your mythical image of the "unstoppable ground loop" is a phase in which a plane has already entered into a critical state - of course its unstoppable. However, you are suggesting that a "ground looping" movement exists, where even in its most meager initial stages, is unstoppable from the very beginning.

 A crock of BULLSHI*, if I ever saw one.


ps) then again I see a lot of those coming from you lately.

Offline straffo

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Groundloops
« Reply #86 on: December 19, 2006, 03:07:53 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Benny Moore
This is true with what aircraft?  I've already said that it can happen with the F-4U.  But it should happen with all taildragger airplanes.

 


I get it, according to you we're supposed to suck.

Offline Alpo

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Groundloops
« Reply #87 on: December 19, 2006, 08:27:07 AM »
Well... I for one am in total agreement.  However, ground loops are not my biggest concern.  The biggest problem in this SIMULATOR is that the spawn to the runway is totally FUBAR.  Any SIMULATOR programmer who knows what he's doing should know that any time this type of instantaneous transportation occurs, a shimmer and sound effect are necessary.  For heaven's sake... they even show you how to accomplish this here:  Beam me down HTC

Please Skuzzy, don't rule this a hijack (even though it is)  as it's blatantly obvious that something is missing from the spawn logic in this SIMULATOR and it really, really needs looked at.

Oh... and for our ground loop aficionado, an official quote on the subject... Simulator vs Game
SkyKnights Fighter Group -CO-
R.I.P.  SKDenny 02/03/1940 - 02/19/2012

...

Offline BaldEagl

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« Reply #88 on: December 19, 2006, 09:18:45 AM »
When I get shot and lose part of a wing it always gets ripped off in one of two places.  HT didn't randomize the wing ripping off correctly.

When I put it down hard I never get a flat tire.  In fact I never get tire wear at all.  HT didn't model the tire wear correctly.

When I get an oil line shot the oil always covers my canopy exactly the same way.  HT didn't model the oil spray correctly.

When I see a tank get blown up it always loses the turret the same way.  HT didn't model the explosion correctly.

Wah Wah Wah.  It's a game and a damn good one.  Get a life.
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Offline hitech

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« Reply #89 on: December 19, 2006, 09:40:50 AM »
Benny Moore: Exactly how many planes have you been in that have been ground looped?