Author Topic: "going up".... (Read 849 times)

humble · « **on:** December 22, 2006, 05:35:31 PM »

happened to film this one this AM, it kind of relates to the comments from nomak, Murder and others on "seeing" things....both good and bad:).

I'd just taken off as a seafire was coming in...I leveled out and got as much E as I could then reversed. After the initial go around I managed to hang the hog out pretty good. I think this is a result of the FM changes (which i'm still adjusting to) or could be plain pilot stupidity....but the bird ends up floating into a facefull of lead. Leaving the fact that survival was no sure thing I now was dinged and totally hosed. I evade a bit and end up in a reasonably good position...but it I follow the spit the end result is bad...so I roll away and go up and over...setting up a totally different fight. I'm not an uber dueler by any means but this is a good example of "seeing" both a bad pitfall and also intuitively "knowing" a better option.

going up

Clutz · « **Reply #1 on:** December 29, 2006, 01:25:35 PM »

This is a very interesting film. I have watched it many times and wonder what I have learned so I would like to take a guess at what I see.

The spit is basically playing a flat turn game. This is good cause he is so fast he needs to slow. He seems to do a real good job turning his plane and getting some shots at you, but I think he made a mistake of not keeping his altitude and staying above you. I think he should have extended after you reversed him and bled some E before merging with you again. I am impressed at how well the spit can handle and still function using almost all flat turns.

You keep "going up" and rolling to meet his flat turn, But, I wonder this most of all; at 01:00 you go up and at 01:05 you roll to the left and complete an immelman which puts you in front of his guns. What I wonder is if a roll to the right at 01:05 in the film would have gotten you behind him? I am going to practice this "going up" move you are doing in this film and learn to roll at stall speed.

I just watched some murdr/widewing films and one of them was called an "immelman beats a flat turn". I think this is basically what is going on in this fight. I think???

This may be my favorite BB film from you humble. This fight is very interesting cause it is so ugly (sorry, that may not be the right word,

) in a way, that it is beautiful! Or, "good and bad" as you say in your post. It is just raw unadulterated fighter against fighter, but has so much skill in it at the same time.

This film has caused a few things to click for me, and I appreciate you posting it.

I like you style humble. I aspire to fly like you one day. You seem to have a crusty take it to the bone style and seem fearless to me. You seem to roll the dice all the time and rely on your instinct and skill to win the fight.

Sorry for the many words in this post, I tend to not have a gift for saying what I mean using few words, as some of you all in the BB do.

Any comments would be most appreciated. Thank you, Clutz

2bighorn · « **Reply #2 on:** December 29, 2006, 03:37:38 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Clutz
at 01:00 you go up and at 01:05 you roll to the left and complete an immelman which puts you in front of his guns. What I wonder is if a roll to the right at 01:05 in the film would have gotten you behind him?

Good observation. At that point F4u could easily roll over, swoop down and behind the Spit. The fight would most likely be over after Spit rolled to the left again...

humble · « **Reply #3 on:** January 02, 2007, 06:38:38 PM »

No question I had the spitty cold and totally hosed things. I think I was trying to force the plane to the right and it hung due to torque. You can see it just kind of floating....when spitty was firing hog was also just hung out in limbo...just bad something....

The only reason I posted this was the aftermath. We all have fights that go how we see them...and others where we blow it and die (or just get beat). Learning to make decent judgement calls after you "scew the pooch" is a big step to winning those fights that could go either way.

Theres a point toward the end where I roll way from the spit and go "vertica". I'm going roughly 150 and simply couldnt get around on the spit (in my mind). This is followed by a second "vertical" at only 100 mph or so. Often times it seems even relatively good pilots become "two dimensional" once they get locked in a low speed turning fight.

Blagard · « **Reply #4 on:** January 03, 2007, 12:46:20 PM »

If I am correct - Because the Spit V (And the Seafire) are such good turners but lacking horsepower, it is usually best not to get drawn into a horizontal fight with them!

I fly the later marks of Spit a heck of lot (but still not that well!) and if I engage a mkV I will always keep the fight in the vertical as usually the extra horsepower starts to give you the edge until you are on top of him.

Benny Moore · « **Reply #5 on:** January 03, 2007, 01:45:12 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by humble
Often times it seems even relatively good pilots become "two dimensional" once they get locked in a low speed turning fight.

Actually, I sometimes try to force the "two dimensional" fight because I need to improve in it. I consider myself great at maneuvering, but only "good" at turning. For me, low speed turning fights are quite rare, and so when I find a pilot and plane whose turning ability is roughly equal to mine, I grasp the chance to learn better turning technique from a drawn-out battle.

When Murdr slapped me around the sky a few weeks ago, many of our battles were long turn fights at sustained turn speeds. He would slowly gain on me, perhaps fifteen degrees each turn. I simply wasn't managing my speed well enough. I don't know if I was too slow or too fast, or using too much flap. But I do know that if I duel Murdr enough, I'll get better at turning.

humble · « **Reply #6 on:** January 03, 2007, 05:21:04 PM »

alot of that depends on initial positioning and same/similiar vs disimiliar plane fights. In a case where you have planes with different charicteristics you need to pick the best fight for "your" bird and try and force it on the other guy. A hog turns pretty well but the speed differential made it an impossible scenario (IMO) so I went up and over...

This is a similiar situation from the other side. I bounced a spitty and wore him down a bit then saddled up. He tried to tighten up but the hog had the right position to ride the flaps and tighten up....had he been a bit further ahead the hog would have bled its E out and he could have spiral climbed me...

spit 8