"UK settles WWII debts to allies"

[Kurt]

Originally posted by Rino
Amazing, Germany couldn't even invade across the channel, yet would
apparently be able to support an invasion across 300 times as much ocean.

     It may be very PC to say the US didn't turn the tide, but it's also BS.

Rino, thats pretty shortsighted...

If the UK had surrendered and Germany controlled all of Europe, their stratigic situation would have changed rapidly.  It would have been very short order for them to be on the East coast.

It is already known that bombers capable of making the flight were under development in Germany... The subs were already off our east coast by about 1942.

If Germany had controlled the entire European continent, they would have also controlled the resources necessary to cross the atlantic.

Tell me Rino, why do you believe that the U.S. was the only country in 1942 with trans-oceanic capability?  Its not like we flew to Saturn.  An undesturbed Germany would have worked it out quickly.

Don't forget, they beat us to Jet power...  Why do you assume they are so incompetent in other sciences?

[john9001]

Originally posted by Vudak
I would argue that England saved us.  Historically accurate but not very patriotic, I know.

Funny how we get all the credit when it was the British who stood painfully alone, after losing nearly everything, but refused to surrender.  

All while we stayed on the sidelines taking bets as to how long they'd last.  Or, better yet, while we stuck our heads in the sand like we continously do until we absolutely had to do something.

After Dunkirk there were plenty of respectable people in England calling for a truce with Germany.  Churchill managed to rally them and that didn't happen.

If it had, and we didn't have a nice, huge, unsinkable aircraft carrier base of England to muster supplies in, Europe might read "Grossdeutschland" on the map today.

 

at the time of D-day the russians had turned the fight on the eastern front and were pushing the germans back, the americans were in italy pushing the germans out of there, and operation dragoon, the invasion of southern france was scheduled.  Even without the island of england to launch D-day from germany had lost the war, it would just have taken a little longer.

[Kurt]

Originally posted by john9001
at the time of D-day the russians had turned the fight on the eastern front and were pushing the germans back, the americans were in italy pushing the germans out of there, and operation dragoon, the invasion of southern france was scheduled.  Even without the island of england to launch D-day from germany had lost the war, it would just have taken a little longer.

Sure, if you make the rather massive assumption that Germany would have lost to Russia if it had already secured the UK.

You see, the failure in this logic is that Germany would have oWnZed Russia hard if they hadn't been tangled up in a fight in the west.  Sure, that harsh Russian winter set them back... But the summer would have been hell if the Krauts weren't getting kicked in the other end.

A Germany unopposed in the west would have owned Russia back to the Ural Mountains within a year or two, setting the stage for a whole different conflict.

I think the problem here is that people are assuming that Germany's power wouldn't have changed if UK surrendered...  UK was 85% of the problem for Germany, and Hitler knew it.  The war you know today would have never happened if the UK had fallen in 1940.

It would have been much much worse, and the U.S. most certainly would have been hit at home at some point.  I'm guessing 1943-1944, but WTF do I know.  Either way, resecuring Europe would have been virtually impossible without UK still standing.

As an American, I'm asking all you other Americans to give credit where credit is due.  The UK stood fast in the face of a terrible threat.   We may have 'saved' them... But do not forget that they saved the world by standing strong against a determined and intelligent enemy during harder times than any of you alive today (at least, those of you playing video games) have ever seen.

There is a point where continuing to 'bash' the UK, or pretend that they are somehow incompetent becomes a shame on yourselves.  

The French are a whole different matter, and largely deserve your contempt... The UK are only guilty of being Brits

[john9001]

your wrong.

[Kurt]

Originally posted by john9001
your wrong.

A strong comeback, from a strong intellect.  

Thanks for making that clear.

Nothing better than someone who just says "you're wrong" and can't explain why.

[john9001]

Originally posted by Kurt
A strong comeback, from a strong intellect.  

Thanks for making that clear.
 

your welcome

[Kurt]

Originally posted by john9001
your welcome

Go back to sleep... Sorry we woke ya.

[Grarsch]

I am still pretty sure that if the Germans had bombed Vietnam with their Corsairs, the Korean war would have been won by the Japanese.

[Pei]

Originally posted by ROC
And when you take a mortgage out to buy a house, a 30 year loan will pay back 3 times the original amount.

Was there a point to this post?  Sounds like a heck of a deal over 60 years.  Repayment terms like That means the US actually LOST in that venture, but hey, our allies are worth it....even the clueless ones.

 

National governments are much lower risk than individuals and so get much better interest terms.

[Thrawn]

Originally posted by Vudak
Funny how we get all the credit when it was the British who stood painfully alone, after losing nearly everything, but refused to surrender.

Britain wasn't alone.

[Roscoroo]

Originally posted by Thrawn
Britain wasn't alone.

I have to agree , I seam to remember alot of pesky u-boats messing with convoys befor the U,S. officially entered the war ....

as for the loans most of that was done in '45-46 to help everyone rebuild . not just for England but to most of the country's devistated by the War.

[Angus]

A couple of interesting facts:
1. The lend-lease deal crawled through the senate with very few votes, and it is extimated that without Roosevelt's firm support, it would have failed.
2. It had to be "opened" with a direct payment in gold (picked up by a U.S. cruiser), as well as the UK giving up some bases (i.e. Bahama) and sharing technology (i.e. Radar when the time came)
3. Most of the first batch of equipment was quite obsolete (50 old Destroyers for instance, but it still made a difference)
4. Business was open with Germany, - it was the RN that blocked them.
5. Before entering the war, the US was already getting tangled in the "Battle of the Atlantic". They had troops in Iceland already in the Spring of 1941, they were doing escorts, and one Destroyer had already been torpedoed.
6. Churchill once referred to the Germans and the U.S. as Britain's relentless enemy and relentless creditors.
(Hope I spelled this one right)

[fd ski]

before you guys get too excited, did you know that poland right after the war paid for ALL equipment, ammo, everything else that polish servicemen in western front used ?

Considering how during same time Roosevelt sold thier tulips to uncle Joe so that they could be thrown in jail upon their return ( some executed) is kinda ironic...

And they weren't even defending their own country, they were defending britain.

Look up Victory Parade in London while you're at it.

[Bluedog]

Originally posted by Vudak
Funny how we get all the credit when it was the British who stood painfully alone, after losing nearly everything, but refused to surrender.  

 

Not quite alone, it was the British Commonwealth, not just Britain.

Canada, New Zealand, South Africa and Australia were all in from the very day England declared war. ( along with several other smaller Comonwealth nations ).
I would argue the point on the nameless nation being saved by the US in WWI too, the US helped greatly to defeat a very nearly exhausted Germany sure, but wearing them out in the first place was no small feat.
I dont wish to detract from the bravery and dedication of the US forces engaged in WWI, but to claim the US won it is a bit of a stretch.
Tipped the scales the Allies way to be sure, but they sure didnt win  all by themselves, millions of young men had done a lot of hard work and fighting before the US forces ever stepped  booted foot in France.

[bj229r]

They borrowed 4.3 billion, paid back....9 billion over 50 years? WHAT would a 1945 dollar be worth in 2006?

Oh yah, that other little thing--how ya think that 4 billion worth of stuff GOT there?--Keep in mind the US was shipping everything it could from 1939 onward, much to Germany's chagrin. As I can gather, about 5% of all US Merchant seamen in ww2 died

http://www.usmm.org/shipsunkdamaged.html

U.S. Merchant Ships Sunk or Damaged in World War II

According to the War Shipping Administration, the U.S. Merchant Marine suffered the highest rate of casualties of any service in World War II. Officially, a total of 1,554 ships were sunk due to war conditions, including 733 ships of over 1,000 gross tons. Hundreds of other ships were damaged by torpedoes, shelling, bombs, kamikazes, mines, etc. Foreign flag ships, especially those with Naval Armed Guard on board as well as ships belonging to U.S. territories such as the Philippines, are included in this list.

This is just a list of tonnage sunk from 1939-1941:

http://www.usmm.org/sunk39-41.html#anchor325668
(some were in Pacific, some were merely detained)