Author Topic: Insurgents fire missle at F-15  (Read 1562 times)

Offline Brenjen

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1514
Insurgents fire missle at F-15
« Reply #30 on: January 02, 2007, 11:39:24 AM »
Journalists do not have a free hand to do whatever they want under freedom of the press. However, just because a reporter happened to be there when the missile was fired (if it even was a reporter who took that picture) doesn't make him or her a guilty of any crime. #1, if it was an American reporter (citizen of the United States of) they may have had no way of knowing about the missile & no way to warn the jet. #2 If it was a foreign reporter (al jazeera?) they aren't bound by our laws anyway.

 I'm just glad my plane & my pilot was well equipped for the task & didn't go down. Way to go air force. I hope the eagle driver turned guns hot on that position & smoked those fools & the film was recovered by a U.S. ground damage assessment team. :aok

Offline Mace2004

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1528
      • TrackIR 4.0
Insurgents fire missle at F-15
« Reply #31 on: January 02, 2007, 12:05:51 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by rpm
Journalism 101.
Nice neocon rant tho.


Jeeze, I had no idea Journalism 101 took precidence over the Constitution, ethics and morals.  I think you prove my point since you apparently believe the press reports to the higher authority of truth (as they wish to portray it) and profit (which is of course the driving motivator behind news organizations).  As far as a rant is concerned, I don't consider a short recitation of facts to be a rant but then perhaps I'm biased.
Mace
Golden Gryphon Guild Mercenary Force G3-MF

                                                                                          

Offline Hawco

  • Parolee
  • Nickel Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 650
Insurgents fire missle at F-15
« Reply #32 on: January 02, 2007, 12:37:46 PM »
I notice there's a bad case of the Armchair General syndrome on here, the picture shows something aimed at a plane, so what ? doesn't change anything, life goes on, guy probably landed and told his friends about it then went and checked his email before heading of to write up a report, no big deal.

Offline Sombra

  • Copper Member
  • **
  • Posts: 203
Insurgents fire missle at F-15
« Reply #33 on: January 02, 2007, 01:43:26 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Viking
All the hydraulic systems have to reach all the control surfaces. How do you propose to do that without making them vulnerable to damage near control surfaces?


I was thinking:

http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0UBT/is_37_17/ai_108283297

The Centurion accident recalls the 1989 crash of a United Airlines [OTC: UALQ] DC-10 at Sioux City, Iowa. In that tragedy, the titanium disc in the tail-mounted engine shattered, and the resulting spray of shrapnel severed all three hydraulic lines, causing a complete loss of hydraulic power. Hydraulic fuses  have since been installed in the tail portion of the No. 3 system to retain at least a minimum control capability should such an uncontained engine failure occur again. However, the NTSB noted that these fuses have only been installed in the tail area. "No hydraulic fuses are installed in any other area of the aircraft," the NTSB said.

The NTSB's recommendation included various protective actions: Installing stronger wing access panels to prevent burst tires from severing hydraulic lines, shielding the hydraulic lines, installing fuses in the wing area, and rerouting the lines to provide greater separation between systems.


Maybe later Airbuses have them?

Offline Viking

  • Personal Non Grata
  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2867
Insurgents fire missle at F-15
« Reply #34 on: January 02, 2007, 02:02:35 PM »
A couple of questions:

1. Is the USA actually in a state of war (legaly)?

2. Isn't freedom of the press part of the US Constitution which contains the following: "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances." ? (rhetorical question I guess)

3. Was the photographer/journalist a US citizen? I would think the majority of freelance journalists in Iraq are not Americans for obvious reasons.

4. Final question: Why would you deny yourselves such an abundant source of intelligence?

Offline Viking

  • Personal Non Grata
  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2867
Insurgents fire missle at F-15
« Reply #35 on: January 02, 2007, 02:07:16 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Sombra
I was thinking:

http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0UBT/is_37_17/ai_108283297

The Centurion accident recalls the 1989 crash of a United Airlines [OTC: UALQ] DC-10 at Sioux City, Iowa. In that tragedy, the titanium disc in the tail-mounted engine shattered, and the resulting spray of shrapnel severed all three hydraulic lines, causing a complete loss of hydraulic power. Hydraulic fuses  have since been installed in the tail portion of the No. 3 system to retain at least a minimum control capability should such an uncontained engine failure occur again. However, the NTSB noted that these fuses have only been installed in the tail area. "No hydraulic fuses are installed in any other area of the aircraft," the NTSB said.

The NTSB's recommendation included various protective actions: Installing stronger wing access panels to prevent burst tires from severing hydraulic lines, shielding the hydraulic lines, installing fuses in the wing area, and rerouting the lines to provide greater separation between systems.


Maybe later Airbuses have them?


I have no idea. Seems you would have to seed the whole hydraulic circuit with fuses to protect it against random damage though. The missile could have hit just about everywhere on the plane. If it is simple I think Boeing and Airbus would have done so a long time ago.

Offline Mace2004

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1528
      • TrackIR 4.0
Insurgents fire missle at F-15
« Reply #36 on: January 02, 2007, 02:52:29 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Viking
A couple of questions:

1. Is the USA actually in a state of war (legaly)?

2. Isn't freedom of the press part of the US Constitution which contains the following: "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances." ? (rhetorical question I guess)

3. Was the photographer/journalist a US citizen? I would think the majority of freelance journalists in Iraq are not Americans for obvious reasons.

4. Final question: Why would you deny yourselves such an abundant source of intelligence?


Yes, of course the US is in a state of war, or conflict if you wish; however, we were not in a "legal" state of war with the USSR yet people were still convicted of espionage.  The actual status of Iraq as a hostile country still existed from Desert Storm, the conflict was never "legally" ended, it was only a cease fire.  Even so, the bottom line is there is no requirement for the country to have declared war for an act, or acts, to constitute either treason or sedition.

There are limits to freedom of speech and the press.  The classic "you can't yell fire in a crowded theater", libel, and slander are all restrictions on Constititional rights that are freely accepted by the courts and have centuries of legal precidence.

Don't know the photographer's background in this case.  I was responding to comments some others made regarding the roll of the press in general when questions are raised as to the source and purpose of published material.  In addition, you're right, much of what the press will broadcast does not originate from it's own emploees which actually further brings into question the legitimacy of their broadcasts.  Recently, there was a freelance photographer who produced hundreds of pictures of the Israel/Hizballah conflict that were reproduced around the world.  Many of his pictures were later found to be doctored by him to put the Israelies in a bad light.  This happens all the time and for the press to unquestionly and even enthusiastically publish such material is unethical at least.  

Even if the product is not doctored after the fact the very choice of material recorded, published and/or broadcast can be a huge source of bias.  I was in Perth Austrailia back when there were protests about American nuclear weapons on ships.  During the port call some demonstrators showed up at the pier to protest.  I was there and saw them, there were maybe 50 total.  I was with a group of Aussie friends that were there to visit the CV.  There were over 2,000 in line to do that.  Over 20,000 visited during that day, all friendly and all embarassed by the leftest protesters.  I later got a letter from home and my family was asking about the demonstration because it appeared to be very bad, they had recorded the US news broadcast of it and sent it along.  Turns out the press photographers had taken pictures from above the crowd and zoomed in so you couldn't see the limits of the small group.  Could have been 50, could have been thousands.  Guess how the press chose to portray it?  They used words like "huge, massive, untold hundreds", etc.  If they had simply zoomed out everyone would have seen that there was no story.  If they had simply turned their cameras around they could have seen literally thousands that wanted to visit the ship, not protest it but that didn't fit their pre-conceived (read prejudiced) story line.

The press is not a great source of intelligence but it can be useful.  When it comes to their broadcasting of enemy propaganda, they are showing what the enemy wants us to see for strategic or tactical reasons.  This is the problem with our supposedly unbiased press, they have agendas of their own.  These agendas may vary and be driven by ideology (BBC) or profit (CNN) but they exist none the less.
Mace
Golden Gryphon Guild Mercenary Force G3-MF

                                                                                          

Offline Viking

  • Personal Non Grata
  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2867
Insurgents fire missle at F-15
« Reply #37 on: January 02, 2007, 03:15:31 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Mace2004
There are limits to freedom of speech and the press.  The classic "you can't yell fire in a crowded theater", libel, and slander are all restrictions on Constititional rights that are freely accepted by the courts and have centuries of legal precidence.


Libel and slander are not restrictions on Constitutional right of freedom of the press. You can print what ever you want, but if someone can prove you have printed a lie they can sue you for libel or slander. Very different thing. As long as you report the truth there is nothing the US legal system can do about it, nor does the US have secrecy laws.

In fact if a journalist had gotten a copy of the US plans to invade Iraq prior to the event (without committing a crime in the process), said journalist could have published it causing untold problems for the US forces, perhaps even lives lost. However the journalist would not have committed a crime according to US law, and according to the US Constitution Congress cannot make a law making it a crime.
« Last Edit: January 02, 2007, 03:17:39 PM by Viking »

Offline john9001

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 9453
Insurgents fire missle at F-15
« Reply #38 on: January 02, 2007, 03:21:31 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Viking

In fact if a journalist had gotten a copy of the US plans to invade Iraq prior to the event (without committing a crime in the process), said journalist could have published it causing untold problems for the US forces, perhaps even lives lost. However the journalist would not have committed a crime according to US law, and according to the US Constitution Congress cannot make a law making it a crime.


i am so glad viking lives in norway.

Offline Viking

  • Personal Non Grata
  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2867
Insurgents fire missle at F-15
« Reply #39 on: January 02, 2007, 03:23:20 PM »
Thank you! I'm glad I live here too! :)

Offline Mace2004

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1528
      • TrackIR 4.0
Insurgents fire missle at F-15
« Reply #40 on: January 02, 2007, 03:36:38 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Viking
Libel and slander are not restrictions on Constitutional right of freedom of the press. You can print what ever you want, but if someone can prove you have printed a lie they can sue you for libel or slander. Very different thing. As long as you report the truth there is nothing the US legal system can do about it, nor does the US have secrecy laws.

In fact if a journalist had gotten a copy of the US plans to invade Iraq prior to the event (without committing a crime in the process), said journalist could have published it causing untold problems for the US forces, perhaps even lives lost. However the journalist would not have committed a crime according to US law, and according to the US Constitution Congress cannot make a law making it a crime.


Libel and slander are in fact very real restrictions as you state.  In these cases the legal questions are actually much more than are they "true" but also the motivation for doing so (including malicious intent) and damages.  The fact that there are restrictions and rules regarding what can be legally published are limits to the freedom of the press.

Regarding publishing of secret US plans there most certainly would be a law broken and the journalists are at the very least accomplices and guilty of aiding and abetting.  Plans are classifed and restricted by law.  The only way for journalists to get ahold of them are if they are legally declassified or if they are stollen.  As the press knows this they are participating in a crime by receiving and publishing them.  This is precisely the point of several cases now pending in US courts, the fact that the press has been allowed to get away with this in the past does not make it legal.
Mace
Golden Gryphon Guild Mercenary Force G3-MF

                                                                                          

Offline AquaShrimp

  • Persona Non Grata
  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1706
Insurgents fire missle at F-15
« Reply #41 on: January 02, 2007, 03:45:24 PM »
Freedom of the Press is very important.  However it has overlapped military security in some instances.  

If you need to have absolute secrecy, don't embed reporters in military units.  Remember when Geraldo started drawing in the sand the location of the unit he was in?

For the most part, people who try to censor the media are not working for your benefit.  Knowledge is power.

Offline Viking

  • Personal Non Grata
  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2867
Insurgents fire missle at F-15
« Reply #42 on: January 02, 2007, 03:58:32 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Mace2004
Libel and slander are in fact very real restrictions as you state.  In these cases the legal questions are actually much more than are they "true" but also the motivation for doing so (including malicious intent) and damages.


Please show me a case where a journalist or media company has been successfully prosecuted for libel or slander (or anything) when they have reported the truth.


Quote
Originally posted by Mace2004
The fact that there are restrictions and rules regarding what can be legally published are limits to the freedom of the press.


To my knowledge there are no such rules or limitations. Please provide a source for these rules and limits?


Quote
Originally posted by Mace2004
Regarding publishing of secret US plans there most certainly would be a law broken and the journalists are at the very least accomplices and guilty of aiding and abetting


US secrets have been published on numerous occasions, but no one has been successfully prosecuted. Companies like Jane's could probably not have existed if what you say is correct.

Can you provide a case where someone has been successfully prosecuted for publishing secret information?


Quote
Originally posted by Mace2004
Plans are classifed and restricted by law


I'm afraid they are not. Plans are classified by government employees who are sworn to secrecy. There are no laws protecting the documents themselves. If you think there are, you wouldn't mind quoting such a law?


Quote
Originally posted by Mace2004
The only way for journalists to get ahold of them are if they are legally declassified or if they are stollen


Or if a third party releases the documents by mistake (or criminal intent). The journalist does not have to commit a crime in the process. Possession of classified documents is not a crime. If you think it is please quote the relevant law?


Quote
Originally posted by Mace2004
This is precisely the point of several cases now pending in US courts, the fact that the press has been allowed to get away with this in the past does not make it legal.


I'm sure many will be prosecuted, but I doubt they will be convicted. Time will tell.
« Last Edit: January 02, 2007, 04:10:12 PM by Viking »

Offline Brenjen

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1514
Insurgents fire missle at F-15
« Reply #43 on: January 02, 2007, 05:44:55 PM »
You might want to check with julius and ethel rosenberg about what is legal & what isn't in the U.S. when it pertains to secrecy

Offline Viking

  • Personal Non Grata
  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2867
Insurgents fire missle at F-15
« Reply #44 on: January 02, 2007, 11:01:49 PM »
Working for a foreign government is an act of treason according to US law. The Rosenbergs were KGB agents. What this has to do with journalism and the freedom of the press only Brenjen knows.