Tactics Question: F4U-1A with Spit XVI 400 back

[B@tfinkV]

Originally posted by SlapShot
As I was reading I was thinking ... tight turn into a barrel or lag roll ... and slam the brakes on in the middle of the maneuver hoping for an overshoot.

I will always try something if being chased and cannot get separation ... I figure ... what the heck ... it just might work.

Slapshot just listed my number one manouver 'try something, it might just work'

[Simaril]

Thanks for the suggestions, guys.

I understand the discussion of the initial merge, but to be honest I'm not sure how much applies. I had framed the question focusing on the endgame, and the initial setup info was.....not at all exact.

The whole thing developed REALLY fast. I had started roughly east of the base, out over the water and to the south of a fairly busy furball. There were maybe 15 cons in the ball, and another 10-20 in various stages of entering and exiting it, but in the general area. I topped out a barrel roll, used airelons to reorient, and cut down through the furball. I chose a target, rolled a bit, and pulled up to fire for the kill at somewhere between 1-2K. Then roll, nose down, and prepare to exit to reset.

As I popped out of the furball, I spotted the daisy chain of the Spit XVI and its pursuers. They had been completely away from the ball, off towards those hills that line the NW edge of that base -- and he just happened to break from THEM by running in my direction. The Spit was as first so low that he was a dot, no icon, and I actually saw the friendlies first. There was no way to track him "all the way", because in furball terms he was in teh next county until I arrived!

Your comments about the merge are good, but since the "500" was pulled out of my ...hat.... I can't say how successful an aggressive move would have been. I do know that I didn't FEEL threatened as he passed, and the more I think about it 500m would have felt like a...situation... to me. It may have been farther away.

The core of my mistake there was in threat assessment, though, no doubt. I discounted him the same way a fullback stops seeing a tackler that just can't reach him in time. I continued to track him, and saw him reverse. It's a subtle difference, but I still believe my screwup was in Energy assessment, not in SA.  After he had picked me, I let wishful thinking delay an aggressive move. As I said at the start, that was mistake #2.



I still cant bring myself to film every engagement, because I end up with huge long lists of unidentified "FilmXX" that I have to examine at some future date. Too close to work for fun! May have to consider it though, as I keep trying to hone the sharp edge.

_____


Widewing: didnt see your post till this am, so didnt make it last night. Will you be there again tonite or tomorrow?

[humble]

My only "question" regarding a barrel or lag roll is the lack of closure. It invites the spit driver to counter an expected move without the E diffetential normally essential to success. I'm looking strictly at the "400 and stable" not the "pregame" {obviously he didnt end up toast on purpose so the what should I have done earlier is a relevent but seperate topic}.

So from my perspective 400 in a slightly neg E situation (acc vs acc) doesnt allow sweeping turns or a spiral climb (which works wonders as stated) simply due to the spits ballistics. To me the single most effective defense a hog has is the rolling scissors....in any defensive scenario. Once you can get a guy sucked into it the fight is normally over {obviously doesnt apply to the "ubersticks"}[where nothing seems to work:)].

My assumption is that I'm in an a guns denial scenario. A spit simply will not turn inside a decelerating hog from a co or positive E situation....simply has no ability to bleed E as well. So on a breakturn the spitty either pulls for shot (good percentage) hi yoyo's into a lag turn (better) goes vertical in a pure E fighting (your toast) or goes "defensive" by overdoing it and enabling you to extend.

To me one gives you a good window for success if he doesnt pop you right as you break or one time you on reverse. Two is a bit tougher but as stated the vertical offset works to the hogs advantage and creates a natural rolling scissors. Three is pretty much toast less you get lucky and reaquire him views wise and hit him in the vert with a bat "lazer ray special". Ffour you clean up roll out to his blind side and now he's looking at an accelerating trimmed 2k+ away hog.

To me the biggest mistake I see on offense is the other guy using a reversal defense when he needs an overshoot and giving you the drive by 300 yd plane view shot. The second is the overshoot defense without enough closure or to far out. I watch 190's Jugs and lala's perform great barrle rolls 600 out all the time and settle in 300 in front of me at the end (I've done it to if i misjudge E state:).....

[TequilaChaser]

my reply regarding the longenated sweeping turns was for setting opponent up into a repetitive state as well as giving a non stable target ( slight jinks allowed), then the SUDDEN Hard Flat Turn beginning hopefully catching opponent offguard and possibly he trys to anticipate and goes opposite direction so you can break away OR( makes  the attacker think that he is possibly fighting a noob ---> ie flat breakturn). Then immediate switch/convert  to rolling into hi yoyo converting to rolling scissors..........if you  find yourself with a bogey on ya 6, set em up the distance counter here says stablized 400, so you both going the same speed, you prob around the 300/325 mark at this time ( remember you dove to deck ) in this range you can perform better turn than the spit, he 9 times out of 10 is going to pull into a high yoyo type maneuver, when you see him break for this move, you immediately roll ya lift vector back into him and climb setting up a vertical rolling scissors........

hopefully I explained it better of why the long sweep turns and then the faked breakturn.....

as for the defensive barrel roll, you have to be mighty quick and have a high arc to maitain your E and still get the opponent to blow by you, remember you both going the same speed, why I said it be a big gamble.......but a gamble is better than nothing at this point.

Simiral, I took your initial post completely and tried to analyze the whole incident......and give feedback from how it appeared in the details....no worries ~S~

[Simaril]

Originally posted by humble
...snip...

So from my perspective 400 in a slightly neg E situation (acc vs acc) doesnt allow sweeping turns or a spiral climb (which works wonders as stated) simply due to the spits ballistics. To me the single most effective defense a hog has is the rolling scissors....in any defensive scenario. Once you can get a guy sucked into it the fight is normally over {obviously doesnt apply to the "ubersticks"}[where nothing seems to work:)].

My assumption is that I'm in an a guns denial scenario. A spit simply will not turn inside a decelerating hog from a co or positive E situation....simply has no ability to bleed E as well. So on a breakturn the spitty either pulls for shot (good percentage) hi yoyo's into a lag turn (better) goes vertical in a pure E fighting (your toast) or goes "defensive" by overdoing it and enabling you to extend.

...snip...

This hits the nail on the head. If the guy were closer, I would have broken for sure. I specifically was worried that breaking would give him an angle to shoot because of the separation that already was there. Looking back, although the guy was a bad shot he was good enough to get me with the time I gave...and if I had broken the odds were good that I would have survived.

The entire problem comes down to that equation. If the break or rolling scissor  can deny firsing angle when starting at 400, then its absolutely the best answer. Looking back, even if it would have been guaranteed failure against a good pilot, the attempt was a better idea than holding my breath, doing quarter rolls to throw gunnery off, and hoping!

[Saxman]

Looking at attempting a break, I generally try to go slightly low and drop under him rather than a pure flat break. It may give him a brief snapshot at the cockpit, but once I've cleared his guns he'll be less able to follow since he'll likely need to make more of a Split-S than a simple nose-low turn to follow and runs a greater risk of lawn-darting himself. This could especially work to your advantage if you've got even a couple hundred feet under you to spare.

You can further use this to advantage if you're flying over a downward slope, as he may fly himself right into the hill if you make your reverse into the slope.

[Benny Moore]

I would have done a nose-low flat turn, and probably won.  The Corsair turns very nearly as well as the Spitfire, especially at slow speeds.  In fact, according to Gonzo's comparison, the F-4UD out-turns the Spitfire Mark Sixteen with full flaps.

[Patches1]

Keep flying the Corsair, Benny! A flat, nose low turn with a Spit 16 at d400 will get you dead very quickly, if not sooner.

Trust me....I'm a ..."Dead Man Flying".

[Benny Moore]

I actually don't fly the Corsair; I've only tried a few flights.  I'm just speculating.  Since their turning abilities are so close, if the guy behind isn't too familiar with his ship the F-4U might be able to pull it off.  Obviously it's not going to work if the other guy knows his ship as well as you do yours.

[humble]

Originally posted by TequilaChaser
my reply regarding the longenated sweeping turns was for setting opponent up into a repetitive state as well as giving a non stable target ( slight jinks allowed), then the SUDDEN Hard Flat Turn beginning hopefully catching opponent offguard and possibly he trys to anticipate and goes opposite direction so you can break away OR( makes  the attacker think that he is possibly fighting a noob ---> ie flat breakturn). Then immediate switch/convert  to rolling into hi yoyo converting to rolling scissors..........if you  find yourself with a bogey on ya 6, set em up the distance counter here says stablized 400, so you both going the same speed, you prob around the 300/325 mark at this time ( remember you dove to deck ) in this range you can perform better turn than the spit, he 9 times out of 10 is going to pull into a high yoyo type maneuver, when you see him break for this move, you immediately roll ya lift vector back into him and climb setting up a vertical rolling scissors........

hopefully I explained it better of why the long sweep turns and then the faked breakturn.....

as for the defensive barrel roll, you have to be mighty quick and have a high arc to maitain your E and still get the opponent to blow by you, remember you both going the same speed, why I said it be a big gamble.......but a gamble is better than nothing at this point.

Simiral, I took your initial post completely and tried to analyze the whole incident......and give feedback from how it appeared in the details....no worries ~S~

TC I didnt read yours before I posted mine. to me they were very similiar in concept. The need for a sudden break turn combined with some flavor of rolling reversal. I simply went on the assumption that any time spent in front of the hizooka's is a bad thing.  From a trainers perspective the real problem is in the decision chain prior to the "catoshtopic event".  Normally I initiate a rolling scissors fight exactly as you describe...basically an increasing ocillation at high speed transitioning to a sudden E bleed in combination with significantly greater osillation and then a rolling scissors when the guy is badly out of sync....

I dont let any spit inside 800 by choice...all to often the 1st ping is the last I get

[Spatula]

Originally posted by Simaril
I still believe my screwup was in Energy assessment, not in SA.

E assessments should be a part of your overall SA picture.

Originally posted by Simaril

I still cant bring myself to film every engagement, because I end up with huge long lists of unidentified "FilmXX" that I have to examine at some future date.

Film EVERY engagement. I pretty much always do as a matter of routine. Just the actual engagements tho. You can periodically clear out the directory of hundreds of films as required. I never go back to any film unless i need to review something in it, and i know that almost immediately, so when i log off i know the film will be one of dozen or so later numbered films, and doesn't take long to find it. Filming is great for learning what you did right or wrong, what your opponent did right or wrong (viewed from their seat). Its handy to have records if any disputes over ramming or HOing or cheating etc. Its great for working out just who was in that other a/c that got away etc And of course perfect for posting on this board

[bozon]

Originally posted by Benny Moore
Since their turning abilities are so close, if the guy behind isn't too familiar with his ship the F-4U might be able to pull it off.  

The spit will pull a lead for the shot if he is 400 yards behind. Even a P47 will since it has little to do with differences in turning ability.
Simple - the turning circles are not nearly co-centered and so the rear plane needs to turn fewer degrees. A break turn is effective only at very close ranges or very large speed difference.

[Murdr]

Any time I have run film, and something is on it that I'd like to keep, I will alt-tab to the desktop, and rename it as soon as I finish the sortie.  Eventually anything with the defult name will go in the trash when I clean up the HD.

[ozrocker]

I noticed noone mentioned this.... Spit 16's and 8's have the disadvantage of weaker wings, meaning less ability to handle extreme stress during manuevers.  I would have hit the brakes, pulled a high G left or right  yo-yo, forcing overshoot. If 16 attempted, to do same, wing breaks off ending your problem.
                                                                      Oz

[BaldEagl]

Originally posted by ozrocker
I noticed noone mentioned this.... Spit 16's and 8's have the disadvantage of weaker wings, meaning less ability to handle extreme stress during manuevers.  I would have hit the brakes, pulled a high G left or right  yo-yo, forcing overshoot. If 16 attempted, to do same, wing breaks off ending your problem.
                                                                      Oz

What you say is true from a taking damage standpoint (Spits are vunerable when taking hits) but I've never had the wings rip off a Spit in high-g manouvers and I've flow plenty of them past the edge of the flight envelope.

In dives I often find that as the airframe starts to groan and creak I have to literally force the nose down to manitain my dive or the Spit will want to climb itself out of that state.  I also sometimes add a little rudder or move into a slight nose-low turn to get it to "slip" and maintain my E at that crtical point.  The only consideration during a break manouver under those conditions is an extended blackout.