Author Topic: A New Way Forward In Iraq  (Read 4550 times)

Offline Sabre

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A New Way Forward In Iraq
« Reply #15 on: January 11, 2007, 12:41:00 PM »
I’ve been watching the debate prior to and following the President’s address of 10 January 07 on where to go in the Iraq war.  I have noted one question that is never asked of those espousing a “phased withdrawal/drawdown/redeploy” (a.k.a. “cut and run”/surrender) approach to the war.  The cut-and-run proponents’ rationale for this course of action is that it will force the Iraqis to “stand on their own”, that it will send a message to the Iraqi government that they need to take responsibility for their future.  This logic is debatable; if the results of the Russian pull out from Bosnia or our own pull out from Vietnam are any guide, this is not the result predicted by history.  Nevertheless, let’s assume they could be right, for argument’s sake.

We come then to THE question not yet asked of those critical of the President’s new plan.  It is the flip-side to their own logic, i.e. “What is the likely affect of a cut-and-run plan on the terrorists?”  If announcing a pull-out will cause the Iraqis to say, “Oh, the Yanks are leaving; we’d better try harder to stabilize our country,” will the terrorists in Iraq also conclude, “Hey, the Yanks are leaving; we’d better scale back our attacks.”  Please consider adding this to your standard list of questions for guests on your show, whether they are for or against the President’s new plan.

On a related issue, what effect would a pull-back of US forces in Iraq have on coalition efforts to help rebuild Iraq, efforts that are heavily dependent on non-Iraqi civilians?  Iraqi stability depends at least as heavily on economic and political progress as on security progress.

Finally, I've never seen the press so determined to see us loose a war.  In WWII, the press would report bad news, but would also go out of it's way to report when things went right.  They understood that maintaining the national will to win was every bit as important as building tanks, planes and ships.  And some things have gone well in this war; you just wouldn't know it from the reporting being done.  The behaviour of some politicians is also reprehensible, and didn't happen in WWII, no matter how bleak the outlook sometimes looked.  We were in a war for national survival, just as we are today.  If you doubt it, then you haven't considered the likely consequences of failure.  And for the record, thousands of Allied soldiers died after the fighting officially ended in Germany, due in part to having to fight Nazi insurgents that refused to accept the new order.  It took 10+ years before West Germany was considered capable of full sovereignity again.  A like period of time was required for Japan to operate on it's own, and even then we've maintained forces in both countries since the end of WWII (60 years).
Sabre
"The urge to save humanity almost always masks a desire to rule it."

Offline Yeager

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A New Way Forward In Iraq
« Reply #16 on: January 11, 2007, 12:42:22 PM »
what do you really think is going on?

pelosi and her ilk could be saying something useful along these lines "We need to get this president set right so we can properly defeat the extremists in Iraq and the greater middle east" but no, they say...."we need to redeploy" (democratic buzzword for retreat) or simply "we need to get out of Iraq and this presidents failed policies" which translates into outright abandonment of everything so for accomplished in Iraq, including Iraq itself  They need the US to fail so they can steal the seat of power on the anger they create.

I can guarantee you if Iraq turns out to be the failure democrats so clearly want it to be then yeah, it will be in large part their fault.  There will be no doubt.  For another unit of measure just ask yourself who would get the credit if Iraq pulls out of the current nosedive and turns into some sort of stable democracy? it sure as hell wont be pelosi and her crowd of ultra libs.  It will be in spite of her.
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Offline Viking

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« Reply #17 on: January 11, 2007, 12:42:36 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by lukster
We as in the United States. If we lose it WILL be the dems fault. Perhaps I should say it will be the left's fault. The left that has critized all of our efforts from the beginning, especially the media.


Ridiculed is a better word than criticize in this case.


I agree, ridiculed is a better word. But only because your efforts have been ridiculous, just like your president.

Offline lukster

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« Reply #18 on: January 11, 2007, 12:42:42 PM »
MT deserves a more thought out response. First I want to address the question "WE?" The US military is nothing more than an extension of the American people's will and strength. Every American of voting age bears the responsibility of what our military does. When our military acts criminally it is our responsibilty to ensure justice. When our military succeeds in defeating an enemy every American shares in that action, whether they approve or are ashamed.

As to whether we fail in Iraq or not, it is irresponsible to believe that every major political party or movement with a public voice does not influence the final outcome. How can one believe their enemy is not greatly affected by their enemies morale, both that of the troops on the battlefield and the folks at home?

Offline lukster

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« Reply #19 on: January 11, 2007, 12:44:31 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Viking
I agree, ridiculed is a better word. But only because your efforts have been ridiculous, just like your president.


Back under your bridge.

Offline Viking

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« Reply #20 on: January 11, 2007, 12:49:57 PM »
You used to be a moderate republican. What happened to you?

Offline oboe

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« Reply #21 on: January 11, 2007, 12:52:17 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by lukster
The left set out to ensure our failure from the beginning. Was more important to them to see Bush fail than it was for America to succeed.


The Left was not responsible for the mistakes Toad outlined and Mr. Bush admitted in his speech.

It's only 21,000 troops, $6.8 billion, and 6 more months.   Practically a comma on a 4 year, $400 billion enterprise so far.    Maybe they should stand back and let Mr. Bush attempt to fix his situation.  

If the Dems allow the escalation (and how can they prohibit it?)  who is lukster going to blame when it fails to make an impact?

Offline scottydawg

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« Reply #22 on: January 11, 2007, 12:52:29 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Viking
You used to be a moderate republican. What happened to you?


Right is the new Left.  Where'd you get your avatar, viking? I sort of remember that video.

Offline Viking

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« Reply #23 on: January 11, 2007, 12:54:48 PM »
From the viking kittens video, the one with Led Zeppelin.

Offline Toad

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« Reply #24 on: January 11, 2007, 01:01:07 PM »
A few thoughts on the responses so far.

First, "Bush"..well, at least our forces under his direction, clearly won the war. That was a stellar, outstanding campaign that destroyed/routed the Iraqi army in short order.

Bush and his administration clearly have not "won" the peace. They have failed to establish a viable Iraqi system of government and to eliminate the threats to a stable Iraqi government in the post-war period.

Similarly, Bush and his administration have not yet "lost" the peace either. I question their ability to "win" but they haven't "lost" as yet. They're seriously behind in the bottom of the 9th though and I think they have two outs on them. It doesn't look good for the home team.

The Democrats in control of Congress will not "win" or "lose" the war. It's not theirs to win or lose. They will, however, call the game due to rain if you'll pardon the continued baseball metaphor. Rain it is; the situation is adverse and they cannot deal with adversity given the position they have taken on Iraq. They might take the blame for calling the game early though.

Bush still has a remote chance to pull this off but I think it's remote because I think the only possible chance is to raise the level of violence against the insurgents to an incredibly extreme level. Think all out war once again. That just won't happen though.

Quote
The left set out to ensure our failure from the beginning. Was more important to them to see Bush fail than it was for America to succeed.


I do think there is some truth to that statement. It stems from Gore's inability to carry his home state; the Dems have never been able to reconcile themselves to the facts of that election. :)  They became phobic about Bush then, with a "damn the torpedoes" mindset wrt to any other considerations. IMO.

And Scholz... our efforts have been honorable, unlike those of the Dutch at Srebrenica. Just for you, I give you Teddy Roosevelt's quote:

Quote
It is not the critic who counts, nor the man who points how the strong man stumbled or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena; whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly...who knows the great enthusiasms, the great devotions, and spends himself in a worthy cause; who, at best, knows the triumph of high achievement; and who, at the worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who know neither victory nor defeat.


You're just a critic.
« Last Edit: January 11, 2007, 01:03:15 PM by Toad »
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline scottydawg

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« Reply #25 on: January 11, 2007, 01:05:02 PM »
I love that quote. Who's Scholz?

Offline Yeager

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« Reply #26 on: January 11, 2007, 01:13:25 PM »
I admire you toad, you take so much time to prepare and put in so much effort to eloquently state your positions and to debate them with others in the same spirit. In my world this is worth doing in a situation where you can actually deal in person with the people your talking or to or communicating with.  For me, here on this bsb its typically not worth the effort.  I do enjoy reading your thoughts though.  Keep it going.
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Offline Viking

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« Reply #27 on: January 11, 2007, 01:15:00 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Toad
our efforts have been honorable,


Opinions may differ on that one.


Quote
Originally posted by Toad
You're just a critic.


So are you.

Offline Yeager

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« Reply #28 on: January 11, 2007, 01:17:05 PM »
ahhh!  viking is gschmoltz lol

thats good to know, what a putz :D
"If someone flips you the bird and you don't know it, does it still count?" - SLIMpkns

Offline oboe

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« Reply #29 on: January 11, 2007, 01:19:30 PM »
I'm just not seeing blaming the Left for this debacle.   The Dems did not control any branch of govenment during this time.  Toad or Lukster, can you supply concrete examples of how the Left is responsible for the mistakes made that have lead to the current situation?    I don't follow your logic at all.    Do we all agree that accepting personal responsibility for one's mistakes is the correct course (as Mr. Bush did in his speech last night)?

Sabre, your statement that the press is responsible for maintaining the national will is surprising to me.   I think the proper role of the press in a democracy is to report the unvarnished truth, period.  You seem to be suggesting that the role of the press is that of a propagandist.      That's a little scary.   Is that right, or do I misunderstand?