Mossie and bombing accuracies

[Tilt]

The MkVI fighter bomber (without bomb sights) was reknowned as one of the premier Allied low level strike bombers in the European theatre.
When precision raids were required against prison walls, boats in Fjords etc it was the Mossie which could deliver bombs on targets.

Apart from its abilty to get in and out quickly its accuracy was of prime importance.

I cannot see how AH can comparably show this advantage whilst conventional (AH) bombers can pick off gun emplacements with unerring accuracy from 14000 ft by use of its super bomb sight.

If the ground attack role is to be given to the planes which actually carried it out then IMHO the level bombing accuracy should be subject to some form of wind drift factor or bomb wobble to balance its role out.

Opinions?

Tilt

[Thrawn]

I think you're right.  The role of precise bombing was that of the dive bomber.  Strange that heavy bomber seems to have this role in AH.  Yes, I know, gameplay concession.  Still wierd.

[Karnak]

I don't think this will be a problem.  My roommate, in the 1 Tour he played, got to the point where he could make pin point attacks with the P-38 in the same manner.  No slope, just straight in at low altitude and drop and the right moment.

We just need to practice.

[SKurj]

Well...

I have posted thoughts on this in the thread in my sig.  Check my last post in there.


SKurj
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[Nash]

I think y'all are missing his point a little.

It seems to me he is saying that the Mossie was valuable for certain functions that other aircraft weren't capable of. In AH, that capability is given to planes that historically did not have them.

In other words (and generally speaking), why take a Mossy to make a pinpoint strike on a target when you could take, for example, a B-26 and do it with 3 times the bomb load?

It's not that big a deal, really... but the Mossie isn't going to stand-out in quite the same way as it did in the war, just because there are other aircraft here in AH that can roughly do much the same thing as the Mossie did, even if they weren't capable of it themselves in the actual war.

At least that's what I *think* he's saying.

[GRUNHERZ]

I fully agree we must petion HTC to eliminate the full 100% retard-mode bombing accuracy over a certaion altitude, lets say after 15,000feet the accuracy slowly diminishes so that by 25,000 to 30,000 feet the accuracy is down to between 50%-60%.

Plus we must see the elimination of rediculous ARCADE 3D outside flying mode for bombers.

Another thing would be to implement some sort of bombsight calibration period where the bomber must satay on a course and at an alt before the drop as was always the case with the norden sights in WW2.

And some reworking of buff guns with regards to the perefect sonvergence idea and their abilty to fire throug fuselages.


I belive these adjustments would easily be compensated for by increaing the blast efecct fof th large bombs.


Anyway Im afraid the very unimaginative and fearful bomber clique here will oppose these ideas, but thats ok, its not my problem....

[SKurj]

Well the mossie did have the highest hit ratio i think when it came to bombing.  I am not sure if that was based on high alt level bombing or all types.
If the majority of mossie drops were any method other than hi alt level, then the only way to replicate this would be to change the way level bombing works in AH.

But to change the way hi alt buffing works in AH changes need to be made to the ordnance, ordnance accuracy and the scoring system for bombing.

The kill/death ratio of the buffs in AH leads me to believe that the current F3 and lazer guns +) are fine!  Any suggestion to change these things never drums up enough support to change them so i can assume, most of the players agree.

The tough part will be making changes to level bombing while still making it attractive to players.  Larger blast radius, and a different scoring system might maintain this.
In AW many buffs would fly for the points alone.  (AW did have a more difficult bombing model than AH)

If strat targets yield greater scores, then they will become more attractive targets as well.  A modifier has to be put in place though to counter a couple of jabos closing a target that in RL would have required level bombing.

ahh more ramble..


SKurj

[Tac]

Yes, I would love to see the SWOTL B-17 norden aiming system in AH. You had to "target" the place, and set the timer out. If you deviated from your course or changed speed you could miss by hundreds of meters.

Increase blast damage (ermm. I mean, PUT IN blast damage) on bombs and put some dispersion on them. That way a buff wont be able to perform like a modern laser-guided bomber, carpet bombing would be able to seriously damage an airfield... if 2 or more buffs come along with it to hit and carpet bomb the field.

And fix the damn guns already.

This would give way to the heavy buffs as the heavy hitters dropping a lot of bombs and doing most of their damage through blast effect (collateral damage), and the dive bombers/jabo planes like mossie,TBM &others would have their niche in the precision bussiness.

[Tilt]

Originally posted by GRUNHERZ:
15,000feet the accuracy slowly diminishes so that by 25,000 to 30,000

Way too high!!!

I do not understand how one could steer a B17/Lanc/B25/Ju88 etc from the bombadiers position with unerring accuracy to drop a 100llb bomb into the centre of a gun pit from 5000 ft yet alone 10k or 15k!!

My understanding of so called WW2 precision bombing (above 10K) was to place all of ones eggs in a rectangle about 40 to 50 yards wide by 100 to 200 yards long. The object being that the large buildings you were targeting were in that rectangle.

Frankly  IMHO a start would be to get rid of the Zoom view in F6 mode..................

(even get rid of it all together??? hmmmmm leave that one)

Next dampen the directional control more whilst in the bombadiers position.

Finally add some (a little) bomb wobble or wind drift factor to the fall (ie a randomiser).

Should we achieve a better (less accurate) level bombing accuracy model I agree that a look at the damage model would be advised. A 1000llb bomb landing plum in the middle of a bomber hanger should disable it for some considerable period of time!

Then the role of ground attack and low to medium level bombing would emerge as a one comparable to history (never the same as).

Then the Il2 and the Mossie will find a niche within a more balanced arena and the ordnance carrying capability of the P47, P38, Typhoon etc come more into play.

I fear that the  Mossie is doomed to become  be come a buff hunter only if this is not addressed.

Tilt

[Nash]

I like this guy.    

Seriously though, I think upping the realism on the buffs would be something that not only the fighters would appreciate but the dedicated buff flyers as well. What buff driver *wouldn't* want to be able to operate a more accurately modelled Norden? What buff driver wouldn't like the trade off of accuracy for a larger blast radius? If people are serious about their rides, I reckon these things would be welcomed.

The *only* gameplay concession I think you still need is to keep a level of accuracy at altitudes that are a bit higher than historical levels. Lone buffs are a reality in the MA and are much more vulnerable due to not having escorts etc. Also keep the potent guns. Other than that, I'd love to see the complete ease and pinpoint accuracy of hitting targets toned *down*.

Why not make dropping bombs a bit of a skill? Some guys would be incredible at it, other guys less so. Sorta like everything else in Aces High. Right now the greenest of newbies can hike a buff up to 30k and place a 250lb bomb right down the barrel of an ack. I know the fighter types aren't so happy about this, but I gotta sense that the people who love drivin' buffs aren't too comfortable with this idea either.

Right now you launch a buff with the knowledge that each and every single bomb you release is going to result in a direct hit. That has got to be a bit boring I'm sure.

[ 08-28-2001: Message edited by: Nash ]

[GRUNHERZ]

They arent serious, well most dont seem to be. They just wanna blow stuff up as easily as possible. The most pathetic "buff" drivers are ackstarr specialists who only take bombers up to kill enemy fighters. These folks are grotesque caricature of all that is wrong with AH buff modeling. That and the car bombing like I do so often during a vulch.

I really really hope HTC takes some time to rethink the role and implementaion of AH buffs, this isnt a demand for instant action and satisfaction, just reaching and hoping for a sign that they dont intend the current state of AH bombers to be the final effect.

Please HTC tell us something, tell us that you might add some more interest, logic, character  and challenge to the bombers, tell us that you have new ideas and concepts to advance this aspect of your sim.

[-tronski-]

I lean towards leaving the current gameplay in relation to the norden "as is"

Mostly because in a buff you're required to do the job of a full crew.
Bombing could be made harder, but then sometimes you don't have to time over a hot target to historically use a norden, whilst moving in and out of the gunner, or even pilot pos..unless of course they add otto.

 Tronsky
 486 Sqn (NZ), "Hiwa hau Maka"

[AcId]

My guess is that sometime in the near future "Dispersion" will be added to the bombs that is much like the "Bullet dispersion" that we see now. For instance like in gunnery the closer you are to the target the more likely you are to have direct hits, it is my opinion that the higher alt the buff is at when dropping bombs the more the dispersion will effect the bombs. I feel it is only a matter of time until HTC implements something to counter the LGB's we have now. However, one WWII pilot was notted saying about the B-17 "With that norden you can drop a pickle in a barrel" I'm sure he was exaggerating at least a little  

[GRUNHERZ]

Cept that barrel was the size of a small town or city........

[Toad]

Well, it took a mighty big barrel to hold all the "pickles" that dropped from a 1000 plane raid.  

[ 08-28-2001: Message edited by: Toad ]