Author Topic: Planes that Aces High forgot  (Read 2377 times)

Offline CPW

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Planes that Aces High forgot
« Reply #45 on: January 16, 2007, 09:49:22 PM »
Yeah! Here is a G.55 site.

http://xoomer.alice.it/g55/G55his.htm

Offline Brooke

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« Reply #46 on: January 18, 2007, 05:10:05 PM »
I think additional planes should be added in order to round out a country's aircraft lineup and added in order of how many were produced.  Of course, overriding all of this is availability of thorough flight-test data (not just something like Jane's).

Here's a list I compiled of production numbers for the various countries.

Aircraft production in WWII

---- US ----

For the US, here are the production fighters, with numbers produced listed (from America's Hundred Thousand):

P-47, 15683
P-51, 15486
P-40, 13143
F6F, 12275
F4U, 11514
P-38, 10037
P-39, 9529 <--- not in AH yet
F4F/FM, 7905

For bombers (from https://www.airforcehistory.hq.af.m...AAFaircraft.htm and others):

B-24, 18190
B-17, 12692
B-25, 9186 <-- not yet in AH
A-20, 7385
B-26, 5157

TBM, 9837
SB2C, 7140 <--- not yet in AH
SBD, 5936

---- JAPAN ----

IJN aircraft from http://www.combinedfleet.com/ijna/ijnaf.htm and from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...2C_World_War_II

A6M Zero, 10449
Ki-43 Hayabusa (Oscar), 5919
Ki-84 Hayate (Frank), 3449
Ki-61 Hien (Tony), 3159
Ki-45 Toryu (Nick), 1701
Ki-44 Shoki (Tojo), 1225
A5M (Claude), 1094
J2M Raiden (Jack), 476
N1K Shiden (George), 415

D4Y Suisei (Judy), 2038
D3A Aichi (Val), 1495
B6N Tenzan (Jill), 1268
B5N (Kate), 1149
B7A Ryusei (Grace), 114

G4M (Betty), 2446
Ki-21 (Sally), 2064
P1Y Ginga (Frances), 1098
G3M (Nell), 1048
Ki-67 Hiryu (Peggy), 767

---- RUSSIA ----

From
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ List_..._
the_CIS
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...2C_World_War_II
http://english.pravda.ru/main/18/90..._roosevelt.html

Yak-9, 16769
La-5, 9920
I-16, 9004
Yak-1, 8720
Yak-7, 6339
LaGG-3, 6258
La-7, 5753
P-39, 5007 (from US)
Yak-3, 4848
MiG-3, 3120
Hurricane, 2952 (from UK)
P-63, 2421 (from US)
Spitfire, 1331 (from UK)

Il-2, 29937

Pe-2, 11427
SB-2, 6656
Il-4, 5256
A-20, 2700 (from US)
Tu-2, 2527
DB-3, 1528

---- UK ----

From Wikipedia entries starting from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...raft_of_the_RAF and using http://www.rafweb.org/aircraftA-D.htm to judge which are WWII aircraft.

Spitfire, 20351
Hurricane, 14000
Typhoon, 3330
Seafire, 2334
Tempest, 1702
Defiant, 1064

Mosquito, 7781
Beaufighter, 5928
Beaufort, 2080

Wellington, 11461
Lancaster, 7377
Halifax, 6176
Blenheim, 4422
Stirling, 2383
Whitley, 1737
Hampden, 1430

Martin Baltimore, 1575 (from US)
Douglas Boston
Brewster Buffalo
B-17
Douglas Havoc
Curtiss Kittyhawk
B-24
Martin Marauder
Martin Maryland
B-25
Curtis Mohawk
P-51
P-47
Vultee Vengence
Lockheed Ventura

---- Germany ----

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German...ion_during_WW2, but using individual entries for aircraft production.

Bf 109, 35000
FW 190, 20010
Bf 110, 15000
Me 262, 1430

Ju 88, 15000
He 111, 7300
Do 217, 1366
He 177, 1146

Ju 87, 6000

Offline tedrbr

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« Reply #47 on: January 18, 2007, 05:41:10 PM »
Brooke!  
Where o where is the Douglas A-26 Invader?!  2452 produced in WWII.... saw service in WWII, Korea, up through Vietnam in 1969!  Finally retired from service in 1972.  Probably the best choice for a perkable bomber to spend buff perkies on in AHII.
(unless they provide Henschel Hs 293 or Fritz X guided rockets / bombs for a He 177 added in-game, or get into the prototype birds....)

Some of the problems with planes can be guessed (and often are):
Put a B-29 in game, people will want a nook.
Put B-25 in-game, people will want CV-launched option (never mind the small payload, and missing defensive guns...).
Put the He-111, or  G4M (Betty) in the game.... it will see some EW use, but otherwise would be hangar-queens.... both outdated by early/mid war.
Yak-3 would be fun.... a lighter, more nimble Yak...but fuel settings in arena would make for a shorter flight compared to Yak 9. (9 was front line fighter, 3 was air superiority, IIRC).
D4Y Suisei (Judy) also be a good choice from what I've read.  Certainly a following in AHII want it.

Then, you can make a good argument that the planesets for Italy, Japan, and Russian need attention more than US, Germany, and UK do right now.

Then there are the option planes: Take the Ki-84.   The Ki-84 Ib (Mark Ib)  had four cannons Ho-5 of 20 mm and the Ki-84 Ic (Mark Ic) version for use against Bombers, with two cannons Ho-5 of 20 mm and Ho-105 of 30 mm in wings.  Hope to see these with the rumored "perk ord system".

Offline Brooke

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« Reply #48 on: January 18, 2007, 09:23:18 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by tedrbr
Brooke!  
Where o where is the Douglas A-26 Invader?!  2452 produced in WWII....


Howdy, Ted!

For each country, I left out aircraft that were lightly produced for them compared to others.  For the US, I stopped at the B-26 -- it was an arbitrary choice.  The A-26 is a great plane, no question about that.


Quote

it will see some EW use, but otherwise would be hangar-queens.... both outdated by early/mid war.


I agree that many of the planes wouldn't see use in the MA, but I'm interested in them for use in scenarios, especially planes that could be used to round out historical play.

Offline tedrbr

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« Reply #49 on: January 19, 2007, 01:22:41 PM »
what strikes me about the numbers Brooke posted are the following:

Ki-84 Hayate (Frank), 3449
Ki-61 Hien (Tony), 3159
N1K Shiden (George), 415

But which do we so the most of in the arenas?  Heck, over 400 Niki's lift every night in any one arena alone.  

For myself, I prefer the Frank and Tony to the George.  The Frank is what I use to lift from and defend a base... my favorite turn fighter.  I'm hoping this bird sees some of the options under the rumored "perked ord system".

The Tony, oddly enough, is my favorite dive bomber, esp vs GV's.  Fast enough to help me stay out of Flak's sights. 2-250kg bombs, and for a while there, I suspect that the Tony's slow-firing cannon was over modeled, due to how easily I could track or turret a GV with it.  Hasn't been as easy of late, but I still like the Tony for anti-GV work.

Also, I read only 260  C205's were produced? The G.55 had 200 produced, 110 that saw operations?  Pretty low numbers, but nice that some Italian planes are represented at least.  the G.55 would be interesting addition.

--------------------------------
Plenty of planes for historical use in game, but if modeled accurately, would not see much use:

Ki-43 Hayabusa (Oscar) - widly used, comparable to Zero, but even more fragile due to lighter construction.
Ki-45 Toryu (Nick) - early war twin engine fighter that P-40's could eat for lunch
P-61 Black Widow.... only if nighttime is brought back to arenas, and if on-board radar and night scope are modeled.  Otherwise, easy prey.
LaGG-1 and LaGG-3... unpopular then, would see no air time now.


Some planes that may see some use, if modeled and in-game:

P-39 Airacobra would be interesting.... I'd add it in it's Soviet skin though, as they got half of them (5007) through lend-lease, and the  "second-highest scoring Allied ace, Pokryshkin, flew the P-39 from late 1942 until the end of the war; his unofficial score in the Airacobra stands at nearly 60 Luftwaffe aircraft".  
Or it's successor, the Bell P-63 Kingcobra, which was adopted by the Soviet Union (but not the US), who took possession of 2,397 aircraft ferried over the Bering Straight.  1-37mm and 4 -.50's would be popular.  As Soviets downplayed lend-lease craft, stories vary as to it's war record. Pokryshkin papers have his group in P63's late in war, but officially he stayed with P-39.

D4Y Suisei (Judy) a fast (342 mph /550 km/h) dive bomber with a 800 kg (1,765 lb) bombload, that also saw conversion to night fighters vs B-29's.

Yak-3... shorter legged, lighter, more maneuverable Yak-9.  Or maybe a lightly fueled Yak-9 is close enough in performance?

Fiat G.55... yep...3-20mm mm Mg 151/20 cannons, one engine-mounted (w 250 rounds) and two wing-mounted and 4 - 12.7 mm Breda-SAFAT (all around the cowling?, so nice convergence with them), plus option for two 160 kg (353 lb) bombs.  A fine bomber interceptor.  Probably useful against GV's too.  German evaluation listed the G.55 "excellent" to the 205's "average" rating.  Supposedly a much better plane than the Me109G.  This would be an interesting plane to add to the mix.

And of course, I'll always argue for things for buff drivers to use their perk points on.  More drones (up to six plane total), maxed out ord bombloads for Lancs "specials" and B-17's (remove bomb bay fuel cells for bombs) and Ki-67's (which run light) --- (pretty sure the B-24 and JU-88's are there already), and perk-worthy bombers..... which, all things considered.... is limited to the A-26 Invader (as B-29 not being added, nor, I doubt the He-177 with is ord capabilities).  Not too many other perk-worthy bombers out there that I can think of.
« Last Edit: January 19, 2007, 01:25:04 PM by tedrbr »

Offline tedrbr

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« Reply #50 on: January 19, 2007, 06:13:58 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by tedrbr


Fiat G.55... yep...3-20mm mm Mg 151/20 cannons, one engine-mounted (w 250 rounds) and two wing-mounted and 4 - 12.7 mm Breda-SAFAT (all around the cowling?, so nice convergence with them), plus option for two 160 kg (353 lb) bombs.   German evaluation listed the G.55 "excellent" to the 205's "average" rating.  Supposedly a much better plane than the Me109G.  This would be an interesting plane to add to the mix.
 


Guess that should be 2 cowl mounted 12.7 mm Breda's.... saw two sources listing 4, but most I've seen say it carried two, which makes more sense for cowling mounted weapon like that.

Offline CPW

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« Reply #51 on: January 21, 2007, 09:40:10 PM »
According to the G.55 site.

the G55 in its very first production configuration, the so named "Serie I - Sottoserie 0

the G55 in the widely known production configuration, the proper "Serie I"

----------------------------------------------

G.55/0

Fuselage lenght:9.37m

Wing span:11.85m

Empty weight:2417 kg (5330 lb)

Max speed at 8000 m (26247 ft)
 630 km/h (391 mph)

Max range
1200 km (746 mls)
at 490 km/h (304 mph)

Armament:

12.7 mm Breda/SAFAT
(2 on top of the nose)

12.7 mm Breda/SAFAT
(2 in the bottom of the nose)
320 rounds each

20 mm Mauser MG151/20
(1 engine mounted)
200 rounds
-------------------------------------------

G.55/I

Fuselage lenght:9.39m

Wing span:11.85m

Empty weight:2401 kg (5294 lb)

Max speed at 8000 m (26247 ft)
 630 km/h (391 mph)

Max range (with aux tanks)
1650 km (1025 mls)
at 570 km/h (354 mph)
 
Armament:

12.7 mm Breda/SAFAT
(2 on top of the nose)
300 rounds each

20 mm Mauser MG151/20
(1 engine mounted)
380 rounds

20 mm Mauser MG151/20
(2 in the wings)
200 rounds each

2 x 160 kg (353 lb)
underwing mounted

2 x 100 l external fuel tanks(26.4 USgal)
underwing mounted

----------------------------------

Ki44 is good,too. I read a text that says Ki84 was a plane update from Ki44.:D
« Last Edit: January 21, 2007, 10:58:42 PM by CPW »

Offline tedrbr

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« Reply #52 on: January 22, 2007, 12:29:58 PM »
Also saw references to the heavier armed Series I being deployed more than 0 was, as it was seen as a bomber interceptor, but I usually saw references to the centerline 20mm having 250 rds, not the 380 rds you list.
 
250rds for a cannon would be a lot compared to many spinner cannon armed planes....up with a Niki and 190's really.  380 rds?  More than what the 12.7mm carried?  That'd take up a lot of space, and is a considerable weight.  Especially when sharing nose space with two 12.7 mm each with 300 rounds of their own.  Also, I usually see the G.55 compared with the 109G for that period of the war, and the G models carried 150rds for their spinners by most accounts.

Favorable German evals of the G.55 may have led to later model 109's  to carry more for center spinner gun?  

In any case, I suspect that G.55 site is a bit off in ammo load for the spinner.

250rds for spinner, 200rds for each wing mount 20mm's, and 300 rds for each 12.7mm sounds about right, compared to most planes of that era, for bomber interceptor roll it was intended for.... still a lot of firepower, in a plane that reportedly was the best the Italians fielded, and flew better than any 109G.

Offline CPW

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« Reply #53 on: January 22, 2007, 09:01:39 PM »
Author notes that:

Ammo loads for the Serie I are from [2]. The value for the rounds available for the nose mounted 20 mm seems high (at least if compared with similar installations), but it actually matches the normal loaded weights. Data for the Sottoserie 0 are from an evaluation report of the second prototype [8].

[2]N. Arena, "FIAT G55 Centauro - FIAT G59", Mucchi Editore, 1994. This is a good source about the development of the G55 and its later evolutions. It has also several data from different test evaluations. It has drawings of the later versions (by M. Ferri).