Author Topic: Health Care Obligations  (Read 1121 times)

Offline culero

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Health Care Obligations
« Reply #15 on: January 18, 2007, 07:13:02 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by festus
"The myth that the United States has the best health care system in the world has long been shattered. We don't have the best health care in the world -- we have the most overpriced health care system in the world.
snip


Here lies the crux of our collective dilemma - the cost of health care in the USA.

I'm old enough to remember the days when, as a wage earner, it was actually feasible to pay for my own health care. Even when something major was involved, the cost was such that it could be managed with installment payments.

The last 40 years, however, have seen the cost of medical care balloon to the extent that for most wage earners, any event which requires hospitalization costs so much that it exceeds the ability to pay, even with installment payments.

The result is that people without insurance who need more than routine care very often present to healthcare providers as effectively indigent. The cost of their procedures then becomes the burden of the healthcare provider (who must provide it but absorb the cost) or the state, which reimburses healthcare providers for some indigent parties.

Thus, the costs are borne by all of us, albeit indirectly. We pay for our care, part of which cost goes to cover our providers' losses on unreimbursed indigent care, and we pay more taxes to cover what the state pays for indigent care.

So, what is an equitable solution?

I know ROC, he's a decent enough individual at heart (even though he's also an a**hole, but I suppose I shouldn't cast stones ;)). I'm sure he would not suggest that indigent folks should simply be allowed to suffer and die uncared for. Remember that for this discussion, "indigent" includes a huge segment of those we refer to as "gainfully employed" people.

So, how do we arrive at an equitable solution?

Its obviously not possible to get the cost tiger back in the cage. There's no way that we can expect the medical profession as its structured now to reduce costs enough to bring them into realistic alignment with individual ability to pay.

The only way people will be able to pay for their own care is by participating in some sort of pooled risk arrangment. This could be insurance from for-profit insurance providers, pooled resource schemes ("self-insured" employment groups, for instance), or some socialized medical care system.

I think we all agree its best if possible to keep the government from expanding its mandate to include healthcare. And, only truly huge organizations have the ability to self-insure.

This leaves insurance. But, guess what? Because of the huge cost increases in recent decades, insurance companies have raised prices accordingly.

The only way insurance is feasibly affordable is through participation in a large group. Large groups are able to spread costs over a large enough pool that they are able to negotiate an average cost that's reasonable. Individuals, however, are quoted prices for healthcare insurance that are exorbitant, because they have no bargaining power. Trust me on this, its one of the reasons I chose to stop being self-employed about a decade ago - I simply could not afford to continue paying for insurance because the cost went through the roof over the prior decade, and I did not want to invest in increasing the size of my business to allow for group participation.

So, rather than going to socialized medicine, we (as a society) must consider requiring all employers to ensure that their employees have medical insurance.

There is good sense in this. Employers should not see this as an entitlement their employees expect over and above their wages. They should see it as a cost of doing business, that cost being a measurable portion of their employees' compensation. It simply requires a change in the way you think about labor costs ("OK, I need 25 people, who I will pay $x/hr + $x/week for insurance").

So long as we mandate this by law, we make the playing field for all employers level. They all have the same ability to seek participation in group plans at the best possible negotiated rates to keep their costs as low as possible. They all pass the cost along to consumers.

The benefit to us as a society is to reduce the amount of tax money that must go to indigent care. Since we agree that the government is most inefficient in managing costs, any reduction we make there is probably also a reduction of care that is being provided at exorbitant cost. The net cost to us as a society will be better if private concerns pay, rather than The Tax Teat.

Does this mean that if you want to be in business, your life becomes more complicated? Yes.

The only other alternative would be for the government to mandate that insurance providers must provide "group rates" to individual consumers. On the surface, I like that best - make everyone pay their own way individually. However, this seems to be a really slippery slope that might lead to us effectively having a socialized healthcare system, since it would increase the involvement of government in the regulation of the insurance industry.

I think we're all best off keeping it all in private hands as much as possible. Hence, think of mandatory employer-sponsored group plans as a normal cost of doing business, same as the minimum wage.

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« Last Edit: January 18, 2007, 07:18:36 AM by culero »
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Offline Mustaine

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Health Care Obligations
« Reply #16 on: January 18, 2007, 07:39:52 AM »
myself, being unemployed, would take a job without healthcare....

for now for a very short time, I would be looking for something else the whole time.


I personally have health issues, so it is possibly more of a concern for me, but my image of a job that doesn't provide healthcare is something like a small crummy cash under the table labor job or something.

there are laws about an employer providing it when a certain number of employee's are there, I thought 25, though I may be wrong.

just my thoughts on the matter


to talk about what is "owed"? I am not. it is the basic principle of the matter, I need my wisdom teeth worked on for example right now in real life.

thats like $6,000 minimum, something a normal worker can't just pay out of pocket.

also, think of a car accident. I get hit by some moron, and am in the hospital for a month. there's $200,000 right there in medical bills.

what if I develop brain cancer? (people get diseases and have medical problems not related to what they do in their lifestyle choices)


it basically boils down to a safety precaution, and because of the enormous costs of medical bills, i really am uncomfortable going without insurance.
« Last Edit: January 18, 2007, 07:46:13 AM by Mustaine »
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Offline lazs2

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Health Care Obligations
« Reply #17 on: January 18, 2007, 08:07:08 AM »
It is not health care that people want...it is free health care and getting the same wages they get now with no further tax burden on them.

They want health insurance that is cheaper and better than their car insurance.  with no deductibles.

They want to be able to continue to sue a doctor for millions of dollars if he botches an operation no matter how honestly.

If you offer good pay...  try offering a couple hundred to five hundred a month less and giving that as a health benifiet package.

Get a group insurance rate from a company that offers health insurance in tiered amounts... this can be from as low as $80 a month for high deductible to as high as $800 for a family or more.

Offer to pay these premiums up to the $500 amount (or whatever amount you decide)  give the rest back if they don't use it in the form of a 401k or whatever.


festus points out the evils of national health....  he (or who he quotes) is correct in saying that with national health we will have to give up our ability to sue the government doctors (ever sue the government?)....  and... we will have to put up with a few deaths of hard working citizens who have health insurance who will not get that mri...headache or not...  6 month long appointments....  the non productive will still sit in waiting rooms cause they have the time...  you don't.  I don't guess that was what festus was trying to say but it is what sticks out.

With national health... the over all effect may be somewhat better overall care ... more people will have easier access but...  the people who have good insurance now... well.. they will see a dramatic drop in service.

National health takes away choice and freedom and grows the government.  There is no need for it.

What it amounts to is.... if you are unwilling to buy any decent insurance and if you think that you will always have a low paying job just getting by  and trips to the DMV and dealing with the people there seem ok to you ...  then national health is for you....  let someone else making more money than you pay for a little bit higher level of insurance than you have now (or can afford now).... or....you just feel that no matter what the reason... that you owe it to others to take care of them even if they won't do it themselves.

lazs

Offline detch01

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Re: Health Care Obligations
« Reply #18 on: January 18, 2007, 08:23:38 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by ROC
When does it become My responsibility to cover You medically?

It doesn't. Not even up here in the wonderland to your north. Excepting of course, situations where employees are injured and employer negligence is proven.
It is however completely reasonable for prospective employees to demand health coverage as a part of their compensation package or for union negotiators to make the demand in contract negotiations. If employers provide medical coverage as the norm in your area, then you get with the program or the best of the prospective employees go elsewhere and the union gets ugly.



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Offline lazs2

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Health Care Obligations
« Reply #19 on: January 18, 2007, 08:34:58 AM »
I agree dtech..  well said.

The democrat women have raised the minimum wage..  kids will now be able to cruise more even if they have only been on the job a week... they will be able to afford a few more drugs or clothes or electronic crap that will be junk by the end of the year.

The cost of health insurance should be part of the wages... let's get it out and honest.... if you make $3000 a month and you get a $500 insurance benifit then you really make $3500 a month.  If you make $7 an hour but get $1 an hour in health benefits then you really make $8 an hour.

The government wants to help you?   how bout they then take off of your taxes any money that you are paying in health benefits?

No?   they don't like that idea... they want more taxes and bigger government not what is best for you.   Not less taxes and more choice... they want to make more decisions in your life.. the women democrats in power want to be your mommy and a lot of you really like that idea...  hell... it was almost impossible to get you to move out of moms house (or the womb) in the first place... you want back in.   It is scary out here and only mom can help.

lazs

Offline Eagler

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Health Care Obligations
« Reply #20 on: January 18, 2007, 08:42:14 AM »
it should not be required by an employer .. should be a perk to draw ppl to your company

I have outstanding benefits at the company I work. I could make more money, ie contract, but will take the security, salary and perks the company offers over a couple more $$

the sad fact is if the employer did not offer insurance, the majority of workers would not have any as they'd rather spend the couple extra bucks on more pizza and beer
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Offline BlkKnit

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Health Care Obligations
« Reply #21 on: January 18, 2007, 09:06:06 AM »
You owe it because I demand it (yeah, like that's gonna work ;) ), if you dont want to provide it, hire some entry level goober and 3 of his friends, and they might be able to replace me, maybe, probably not.

Sounds like I am full of myself doesn't it?  Lots of skilled people out there who feel the same way.  WE know we are expendable, we also know we can get another, probably better, job, by lunchtime. But I digress.

I dont think my company "owes" me medical (other than on the job injury stuff), and in actuality, they provide what has got to be the worst insurance ever at no small cost to the employees.  I opted out of it.  Some cant go without it and thats the part that ticks me off, no real options for them.  Of course my bosses are kinda silly about some things.  We also dont have "sick" days, because having them would promote illness.

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Offline Eagler

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« Reply #22 on: January 18, 2007, 09:24:29 AM »
betcha health insurance is much cheaper in India or Mexico, if it is required by the company at all  ..
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Offline Mustaine

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Health Care Obligations
« Reply #23 on: January 18, 2007, 09:40:01 AM »
I think something is being forgotten about the cost of healthcare...


malpractice insurance.


yes another type of insurance.


lawyers making enormous cases for things make the hospitals and doctors pay inordinate amounts of money for the insurance.

I could have been lied to, but when I was working at the hospital I was told the insurance premiums for a doctor were up to and above $75,000 / year, and that was taken out of the Dr's salary. yes they make triple that, but that is part of the reason.
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Offline sluggish

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Health Care Obligations
« Reply #24 on: January 18, 2007, 09:45:42 AM »
I didn't know health coverage was required by an employer (in fact I know it's not).  It almost sounds like you're complaining that you have to compete for employees with employers that may be more generous than you...

Employers who refuse to fairly compensate their employees then complain about not being able to find good help have always puzzled me just as employers who demand loyalty from their employees without giving it do.

Offline ROC

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Health Care Obligations
« Reply #25 on: January 18, 2007, 10:52:29 AM »
Quote
It almost sounds like you're complaining that you have to compete for employees with employers that may be more generous than you...


I'm not complaining about anything, it's a discussion.  I'm trying to get to the core reason some people think they are Owed things mearly by employment.  I don't have competition, I'm the best in my industry, with the best employees who have earned their share.  It sounds to me like you bit on the popular media sound bites, do you have a thought you might contribute that's not an assumption?

Why make the employee pay, which is a direction many prominent leaders are going?  Why not simply mandate you get health insurance like most states require Car insurance?  People go to work and get paid for that work, why do I or should I care how they spend their money?  

The problem with mandating health care by the employer is that we do not have the ability to control our costs.  How many of you want your employer telling you not to smoke, drink, when to go to bed or whatever, as I said above?  We are being pushed to pick up more and more of the costs and are restricted from any preventative measures.  Would those who have argued Fairness explain how fair that is?  Granted, it's nice and wholesome when big bad greedy companies provide benefits, but that should be their choice, to draw the best people possible by being competitive.  I am still trying to get a grip on the mindset of people who think it's Owed, not mandated YET, but simply Owed to them, that's all this is about :)

Oh, and bite me Culero :D
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Offline sluggish

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« Reply #26 on: January 18, 2007, 11:24:33 AM »
I think Lazs (as usual) nailed it when he suggested that the mindset be changed to look at benefits the same as monetary compensation.

I once worked for a heating and cooling business that told me I would get health insurance after a year.  After asking around I figured out the farce.  He didn't offer anything; he let you buy into his plan.  With a family of four it would cost me about $240 a week for his "benefit."  When considering a job a potential employee has to take into account the monetary value of everything being offered.  When the "benefit" costs the employee 2/3 of his paycheck, it's not a benefit.  Most people (who have their head screwed on right) will take a job with a lower salary if the benefits are right, just as most people will take a job without health coverage if the salary is right.

If you are paying a decent living wage that people can afford to buy their own insurance with, there shouldn't be a problem.  However, if you're like most employers, and are paying your help just enough to keep them, when you take away their health insurance, you've just tipped the scale for them to start looking for other employment.  Then you can be like all those other guys complaining that "you just can't find good help anymore..."

Offline Rolex

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« Reply #27 on: January 18, 2007, 11:51:35 AM »
If health care by the employer is mandated, the playing field should remain the same because the cost is passed on to consumers as price increases by all competitors.

National health care is only a bad idea if you automatically assume that it must be operated the same way, and have the same problems, as the bad systems used as examples.

The combined problems of the US food/pharma/legal/insurance/government/hospital/health care system are so diverse that it's a full-time job just to discuss it.

Offline BlkKnit

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« Reply #28 on: January 18, 2007, 12:06:48 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by ROC
I am still trying to get a grip on the mindset of people who think it's Owed, not mandated YET, but simply Owed to them, that's all this is about :)


Are you equating "owed" with deserved or something else?  I consider every possible benefit as deserved, IF I can get that benefit with another employer or it is standard throughout my industry.  Might just be arguing semantics here, but I think if I deserve it, it is owed.

You seem to be looking at it like something that is not deserved and your employees are demanding a benefit that has not been earned or is not standard throughout your industry.  In that case, I'd say its not "owed" and should not be expected.  But, I doubt there are many large companies left that do not have some type of health care package.

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Offline Shuffler

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Health Care Obligations
« Reply #29 on: January 18, 2007, 12:09:37 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Sixpence
Wow, you think you would be proud to have a business that provides health care for your workers.

Oh well, I now see why we are getting closer to government healthcare.


Sure I'll supply medical to you... of course you wont make the wages your making now and you have to live as I say since your lifestyle is now part of my business.

All this talk stems from the fact that we no longer treat lazy folks as we used to. Now if you don't work we feed you... give you spending money and medical. If you have kids we pay you to take care of them even if you don't take care of them. If you have more kids while we are paying you... we pay you more. Weakening a once powerful nation by helping bums procreate.

If has been said many times in the past..... but if you take all the money from the rich and give it to the poor, in a few years the rich will have all the money back... the poor will be poor again.

Disgusting totally disgusting
« Last Edit: January 18, 2007, 12:22:51 PM by Shuffler »
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