Health Care Obligations

[BlkKnit]

Originally posted by Shuffler
Sure I'll supply medical to you... of course you wont make the wages your making now and you have to live as I say since your lifestyle is now part of my business.

So, instead of paying an insurance premium, you want to actually pay my medical expenses?  Cause, thats what it sounds like.

If you are paying for insurance and holding my wages down because of it, you can tell me how to live til yer blue in the face.  I'm assuming you've never needed medical attention that you couldn't afford.

BTW
Do I get a bonus for not going to the doctor?
Will you supply me with a helmet to wear while I ride my bicycle to work?
Will you promise not to yell at me for doing a poor job?  It might cause stress and affect my health.
Can I have a pony mommie?

[BigGun]

not real sure why people think they are owed. If you receive HC, you are paying for it one way or the other. They definately aren't owed it & I don't think it is really given to anyone.

Kinda like businesses and corporations aren't owed the opportunity by a state to operate in any manner they like. If they don't like the rules mandated by state to have business, there is always choice to pick up & move. Lot of companies do just that.

[lasersailor184]

The last 40 years, however, have seen the cost of medical care balloon to the extent that for most wage earners, any event which requires hospitalization costs so much that it exceeds the ability to pay, even with installment payments.

This is directly because of Health Insurance that costs have bloomed.  With health insurance, you take away the competition for money.  With health insurance, you pretty much don't care where you go because it's already paid for.  And because of this, the doctors know that the costs don't affect you directly that they push up the costs.

But suddenly if you threaten to leave a certain doctor to go to another who is charging a thousand dollars less for a surgical procedure, then the costs for procedures become competitive.  

When does it become My responsibility to cover You medically?

When you cannot attract employees without medical benefits.  Everything follows the laws of supply and demand.  If there's a surplus of workers, then they have to sacrifice something they want in able to have a job.  I.E. Working without having medical coverage.

If there's a surplus of jobs, then you have to sacrifice something of yours in order to get employees rather then the other companies getting those employees.  I.E. Offering medical coverage or higher wages.

[Halo]

Good thread, ROC, with well-stated preface.  

Always comes down to capitalism vs. socialism vs. communism.  The latter seems to have the most idealism, i.e., from each according to his means, to each according to his needs, but in practice doesn't seem to work very well since many people are more pragmatic than idealistic.

So given enough choices, we usually wind up in some sort of compromise, e.g., the line where x number of employees requires the employer to provide health insurance.  

It's always a huge decision for any business owner to choose exactly when hiring even one employee would bring him more benefit than grief.  You make an excellent point in considering why don't businesses simply pay x salary and let the workers buy what they want with it, including health care insurance just as they buy car insurance on their own.  

(Minor digression: Naturally the tax code is big help.    Remember when people could do their own taxes without a tax company or a computer program?  Remember when the tax rules didn't weigh as much as a phone book?)

I think a lot of the health care issues derive from some industries that were more hazardous to health than others.  And from the days when workers were so desperate and had so little they were helpless to become little more than slaves to a company.

We've come a long way, and now as a society we're at the cash cow level where adjustments will be frequent and perpetual.  We all pay for everything one way or the another.

[Yeager]

why should I work for anything in this life.  The government owes me a job where I dont have to do anything, a house, a car, all the food I can eat...   and oh, medical coverage to take care of my pathetic fat lazy unhealthy sedentary ass.

And yes, Im a democrat, always have been, always will be!

[lazs2]

I think that with the type of insurance we have in this country that it is correct to discuss one tangent on the whole "owed" thing...

I think it is wise and correct for the employer to look into every group plan available and to offer a choice of plans for employees.. it is often much cheaper for everyone to participate in group plans.

laser is again simplifying the free market approach but... not too badly this time... free market works but it's benifiets diminish with increased levels of expertise.... examples would be legal counsel, and real estate..

there is lot's of competition in both fields...just look at those sections in the phone book...  it arguably takes a lot of effort to become a lawyer and, arguably.. some cost more than others but... they all cost a bunch... even starving ones.. they all charge the most they can on personal injury for instance which is... the most the law will allow...

real estate.. up until recently... they all charged a percentage that was 3-6% to sell your home... the glut of them has dropped the price somewhat... the reason being that it really does not take to much effort to become a real estate agent nor does it require much work for the monetary return.

Doctors would not cut rate in the free market.. they would always end up charging more than say lawyers and never sink to real estate agent cutthoat prices.

lazs

[Maverick]

Roc,

As to your first question as to why an employer should provide health care. It's a cost of doing business. In CA. it will be a mandated cost of business very soon. As an employer, don't like the cost, relocate, outsource, whatever you want to call it. Oncve enough employers leave the tax base gets even shorter and some breaks will start up again.

In another state that is not trying to mandate health care, it's a tool to attract the better emeployee. The smart ones know that an extra beer and pizza a week (That's pure BS as the cost is far far higher) is not worth the cost of not having insurance.

Any employee not of the first job mentality will be looking for the best overall package of both wages and insurance. The famnily requirements will demand that outlook. A bout with cancer, severe illness, problem pregnancy will drive that issue home very very fast. The employee won'where else unless they have at least equivalent coverage and better salary.

As to the individual costs. Retirement teaches a few things. One of which is the health care you had while working does not necessarily stay at the same level and the costs go up. The coverage for the 2 of us plus my son have topped $10,000.00 annually some time ago. The lion's share of the cost is the cost of coverage that comes right off the top of the check. That has now reached 30% of our annual income, oh and that is pre tax. In the case of my wife's income it's just about 40% of her check, then the taxes are witheld. This is not based on her working income, it's what her retirement benefit is set at.

Because of required meds to maintain cancer remission the cost of meds alone would be better than twice the cost of our insurance. Health coverage is a mandatory situation for us. It is also one that we pay attention to each year when the "open enrollment" comes up. We have to weigh coverage vs premium each year, provided there is even a choice to be had.

What is the answer? To my way of thinking it's based on 2 main factors. Medical malpractice insurance costs at ALL levels of medicine. Not just the Dr. or Nurses, but the entire indiustry. The second factor is directly related and that's unlimited awards for malpractice suits.

A third factor but less than the other 2 are the costs of research and development. Since it's done on a profit basis plus the cost of the Govt. over sight and requirments it's astronimical to develop something used in the health care industry.

If we can get a handle on these issues and put a cap on profits as well as suits we might see some reduction in costs. I won't hold my breath waiting for it.

[storch]

the reason for offering employee benefits is simple.  if you want to market a quality product then you need to hire good people.  in order to attract good people you need to have a good benefits program as well as paying competetive wages.  the cost of these isn't paid by the business owner the end user pays all costs.

in my business we require some highly skilled workers guys who can measure, fit, weld, shape, polish and install expensive gates.  aside from that we need guys who are competent electronics trouble shooters who need to be available on a 24/7 basis in case of emergencies.  these guys get top dollar from me because they are worth it, I need them to satisfy my customer base and to keep my commitments.  the more menial tasks that don't require skilled workers we sub out to labor contractors and save ourselves the headaches associated with people who don't have the ambition to at least learn a skill.

[lasersailor184]

Lazs, the great thing about the laws of supply and demand is that they always apply.


Unfortunately, the Health Insurance companies has really humped the individual without health insurance.  Not in that the individual isn't covered, but because my aforementioned price gouging by doctors because they can.


Because the doctors can charge more to the insurance companies, they end up charging more to someone without health insurance.  More then what the medicines and procedures would be worth in an open competitive environment.

But this is the one time I don't have a solution.  Insurance is all about gambling.  You're gambling that you WILL get sick, they are gambling that you WON'T get sick.  You are willing to spend a certain amount of money in the hopes that if something ever happens, the health insurance will cover it.  They are willing to accept that deal in the hopes that you never get sick.  And it works for them, they wouldn't be in business if it were not profitable.

So to the solution, I see none.  Least of all government mandated health care, both personal and business.  The doctors have a right and should charge as much as they can get for services.  But this cycle will continue.  The prices for procedures and surgeries will rise way faster then inflation will for the true free market value for them will.

[LePaul]

That's why its called a "benefits" package.

But you make a very valid point that others have discussed over the years....why does the burden of health insurance fall into the hands of employers?

All it does to employers is make their costs rise.

[68ROX]

Originally posted by ROC


Ok, I'm curious as to the root of the health care responsibilities.

...As someone who has built a business from the ground up, and have sacrificed Their income for years and years, to finally get successful, Please explain to me why I "owe" anyone Anything at all other than Pay for their Work.  

How on Earth have people become so convoluted as to think in any way, shape or form that they are Owed anything other than Pay for their work?  I, for the life of me, am at a loss here.  Granted, I see the Value of offering it to recruit good solid employees, that is a very good benefit, but tell me, prove to me somehow, that this is something Owed simply by employment.

It's not.  You are only governed by state law (depending on the number of employees you have) and Federal Law (depending on your requirements for Workmans Compensation).

Outside of that, you, as an employer, don't owe any employee JACK.

And NOW...for the REALITY of the business world, and since you are a business manager...this APPLIES DIRECTLY to YOU:

QUESTION:  DO YOU as a HUMAN care about your EMPLOYEES?

If the answer is NO...there is no need to read further.

If the answer is YES...read on...

Are you personally responsible for the health issues of smokers, drinkers, overweight folks, etc....no.  That is their personal decision.

BUSINESS RULE # 3.... Employers who offer the most benefits will retain employees LONGER, have HIGHER PRODUCTION, and in the end, have fewer employee related business costs than those who don't.  REASON:  Happy employees make ANY business more successful.  Besides, how much MORE are the costs of having a high turnover rate and constantly having to train new people...AND...because valued employees WILL LEAVE for better benefits...regardless of what type of business you run.

MAJOR MEDICAL:  Yes, you have to pay a share (usually 50%) of the premiums, but if you fail to provide this benifit, your most valued employees can be EASILY lured to your competition that does...including ALL the knowledge they have of YOUR business that they will gladly tell their new employer....and taking some of your most valued customers in the process.

SUPPLIMENTAL:  With most companies, this won't cost you so much as a DIME.  One company, AFLAC, for example, even helps with the setup of payroll deductions, paperwork, education, and even takes care of the employee claims PERSONALLY.  They can get cancer, hospitalization, accident, life, and even disability to pay their out-of-pocket family expenses when they are sick or in an accident and CAN'T work.  Supplimentals are employee optional, and again, cost employers NOTHING.

Employers who care do not wish to see their employees have to declare bankruptcy due to not only the medical bills major medical doesn't cover (up to 20% of the total bill)...PLUS...co-pays, deductables, gas, travel time, and MOST of all...LOST INCOME...(not to mention having to STILL pay their cable, credit cards, car payment, auto insurance, rent, food, daycare, (etc) ALL while they were unable to work...and WITHOUT a paycheck...get supplimental as a minimum....BUT...

Over 50% of ALL bankruptcies are due to medical bills...80% of THOSE people HAD major medical through their employer, but NO supplimental insurance.

QUESTION #2...how many paychecks can YOUR employees afford to miss before their situation begins to get catastrophic?

The NATIONAL average is TWO...less in some areas. The vast majority of employees in America live paycheck to paycheck.

As a former director of a business, I not only provided major medical to every full time employee, but HIGHLY encouraged that they get as much supplimental as they could afford.  

BTW:  many supplimental policies cost the equivilent of ONE HOUR'S pay a WEEK for their monthly premium ($5.00-$7.00), something even all minimum wage employees can afford.

During my tenure, turnover dropped from 40% a year to lower than 4%, and NOT ONE left to go to any of my competitors.

When I did need a new employee (usually from promoting from within), the stream of current employees at my door to refer a friend or relative to fill the vacancy was overwhelming.  Every time I put an add in the paper, the response to ONE job posting was always 300-400 applicants, and this is a small (population less than 40,000) town.

Word gets around if you care....

Word ALSO get's around if you don't.

Good luck!

Messase me if I can help.


ROX

[republic]

As a naive 25 year old, I'd like to think a business is about more than just making money.  I would also like to think that if I owned a business and had good faithful employees, I would want them to be taken care of....

The whole "do unto others as you would have them do unto you" comes to mind, and  "The love of money is the root of all evil."

As a lower-middle class (teacher salary) employee who had a father who worked a hard life (100+ hour work week) in the oil field for little pay....the whole "Please explain to me why I "owe" anyone Anything at all other than Pay for their Work" statement makes me want to vomit.

I'm sure your business isn't the same, you are probably a good employer, providing good pay, for descent work hours...but the law is there to protect the less fortunate...

[lazs2]

laser... again.. I think that you are not thinking it through.   supply and demand does not work if the supplier is united.   How would you explain lawyers?   look at the phone book... it is jam packed with em.    They don't cut each others rates on settlements.

Same for real estate... can't swing a dead cat without hitting an agent and they need little skill to do the job yet.. they charge laughably high prices. (this is changing slightly)

I see little in the way of ultimate solution but would say that some tort reform would go a long way...  use the socialist model for that.   Make it so doctors do not have to pay for malpractice insurance... if they screw up too much compared to other doctors doing the exact same job... pull their licence.  

if they are allowed to keep more of their money (no $75,000 a year in malpractice insurance) more will go into the medical field and we will have more doctors.

Socialist medicine?   who will want to be a doctor under that system.... Not Americans who know better.

insurance is worthless if you never need it.  It is also worthless if you have nothing to protect.   Homeless people need no insurance.. they can wander into an emergency room and get treated.    

I just find it odd that people are willing to pay 200 a month for car insurance with a $4,000 deductible but scream bloody murder about health insurance that costs $80 a month with the same deductible and a $50 charge for a doctors visit.  

lazs

[lasersailor184]

Originally posted by republic
As a naive 25 year old, I'd like to think a business is about more than just making money.  I would also like to think that if I owned a business and had good faithful employees, I would want them to be taken care of....

The whole "do unto others as you would have them do unto you" comes to mind, and  "The love of money is the root of all evil."

As a lower-middle class (teacher salary) employee who had a father who worked a hard life (100+ hour work week) in the oil field for little pay....the whole "Please explain to me why I "owe" anyone Anything at all other than Pay for their Work" statement makes me want to vomit.

I'm sure your business isn't the same, you are probably a good employer, providing good pay, for descent work hours...but the law is there to protect the less fortunate...

Careful young one, you are drifting into the bowls of socialism.  No one owes anyone anything, least of all their personal property.  Do you owe a homeless man money because he has less then you?  No.

By the way, Money is the root of everything good that happens in this world.  It is the socialists who would want you to think otherwise and to hate success.

laser... again.. I think that you are not thinking it through. supply and demand does not work if the supplier is united. How would you explain lawyers? look at the phone book... it is jam packed with em. They don't cut each others rates on settlements.

Yes it does Lazs.  At all times you have the choice to decide whether or not to pay a Lawyer to do a service.  If he's cheap, it makes the trade better for you.  If he's not, then just don't deal with him.  Do it yourself.  When enough people decide that lawyer fees aren't worth their cost, the lawyers will either go out of business or lower their costs.

And then factor in the cost of various quality of lawyers.  You can pay 3x the amount of a phonebook lawyer to get a good one.  You would trade off your money for a higher chance of success.  Again, supply and demand.

If people keep demanding lawyers, not looking for competetive bids and paying rediculous amounts of money, then they are going to still charge rediculous amounts of money.

The power to change it is in you, not the legislative system.

but the law is there to protect the less fortunate...

The law is there to keep the politicians in power.  Any other reason is just naive on your part.

[republic]

Originally posted by lazs2

I just find it odd that people are willing to pay 200 a month for car insurance with a $4,000 deductible but scream bloody murder about health insurance that costs $80 a month with the same deductible and a $50 charge for a doctors visit.  

lazs

Wow, that's some amazing health insurance.  Just to add my wife to my plan at work it's $440 per month.  To cover her under Blue Cross Blue Shield (the most popular individual ins coverage here), it's $300 per month.

I also pay 130 per month for a 500 deductible on my new car and liability on my truck that's paid for.

Are insurance rates really that variable from state to state?