Author Topic: the three things I harp on...  (Read 1681 times)

Offline oboe

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the three things I harp on...
« Reply #60 on: January 25, 2007, 12:25:48 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by republic
I dunno, I've always felt that a car, at least as an American, is the defining symbol of freedom.  At 16 we are given this freedom, we can travel anywhere in our nation without paperwork, permission...or anything.

You get up one morning and want to go see the Alamo?  Then go.  You want to see where a random dirt road leads...you go.

I'm sure it's probably a cultural difference, I suspect in China they have more mass transit alternatives than we have here.  I imagine if everyone in China owned 2 vehicles, as is common in America, they would have nothing but gridlock.

One of my favorite things in life, is to hop in my old Nissan, and see where a road goes.  Really, imo....that's freedom incarnate.


It's difficult to not see a car as a symbol of freedom.  I don't know that I can.   But I wonder if that's just decades of media/advertising programming coming through.   America has existed as a free country a lot longer than automobiles have been around.   How did pre-auto Americans symbolize their freedom?   A horse and buggy?

Makes me wonder if our ideas of freedom have been degraded over time and now we think of it in superficial, materialistic terms.

Offline Chairboy

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the three things I harp on...
« Reply #61 on: January 25, 2007, 12:48:17 PM »
Oboe, you may be confusing two different concepts.

There's Freedom and there's freedom.  If I live in a spacious prison cell where I can stretch out, I have freedom.  

If I'm living in a tiny wood shack barely bigger than my shoulders but it's on land I own and no man can claim dominion over me, I might have Freedom.
"When fascism comes to America it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross." - Sinclair Lewis

Offline lazs2

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« Reply #62 on: January 25, 2007, 02:22:31 PM »
I think republic said it pretty well... the car is a way to hit the road and see things...  You are the master of your destination..  

I also agree with chair but would say that if you live in a tiny apartment in a filthy city and you are at the mercy of landlords... you are not free... give me the shack every time.

lazs

Offline -dead-

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« Reply #63 on: January 28, 2007, 04:00:48 AM »
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Originally posted by FastFwd
From what Ive read, -dead- and pei are never wrong!
I think you'll find the list of people who are never wrong on this board is pretty much all encompassing.
“The FBI has no hard evidence connecting Usama Bin Laden to 9/11.” --  Rex Tomb, Chief of Investigative Publicity for the FBI, June 5, 2006.

Offline -dead-

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« Reply #64 on: January 28, 2007, 04:41:56 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by republic
I dunno, I've always felt that a car, at least as an American, is the defining symbol of freedom.  At 16 we are given this freedom, we can travel anywhere in our nation without paperwork, permission...or anything.

You get up one morning and want to go see the Alamo?  Then go.  You want to see where a random dirt road leads...you go.

I'm sure it's probably a cultural difference, I suspect in China they have more mass transit alternatives than we have here.  I imagine if everyone in China owned 2 vehicles, as is common in America, they would have nothing but gridlock.

One of my favorite things in life, is to hop in my old Nissan, and see where a road goes.  Really, imo....that's freedom incarnate.
Well freedom incarnate is a rather limited freedom:

1. You're stuck with going where the roads do, which means relying essentially on the government.
For example: you can't go anywhere on my island, because they are no roads; so hopping into your old Nissan would mean you're going absolutely nowhere out here -- ditch the car and you can walk though. So in my case a car would hugely limit my freedom.

2. Even with a huge network of government built and maintained roads (going on reality rather than the hypothetical -- and private firms charge money for you to travel, further impeding freedom) there are still great limitations to freedom they offer: you're still stuck in the US - and not even all of the US (try driving to Alaska or Hawaii without paperwork, permission...or anything). You get up one morning and want to see Honolulu? In a car, you're stuffed.

3. Owning a car is also rather limited as a freedom as you need cash to buy it and run it: paying the government tax, paying for the fuel etc etc. Hardly an inalienable right.

All in all, the car isn't the thing offering you freedom. In fact it may enslave and imprison more than it frees -- how long do you spend a week in your car? How much room do you have inside your car? Sure the car moves, but for the entire journey, you're stuck in a seat, and maybe even strapped in place. In fact it sounds a lot like some dreadful prison in a way: is the car not a bit of a gilded cage?

I like trains best as a mode of land travel because you meet lots of people, can wander about whenever you like and have fun & drinks. It's like a big bar on wheels. Ships are nice too. Cars, buses and aeroplanes are uniformly awful and boring ways to travel.
“The FBI has no hard evidence connecting Usama Bin Laden to 9/11.” --  Rex Tomb, Chief of Investigative Publicity for the FBI, June 5, 2006.

Offline republic

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« Reply #65 on: January 28, 2007, 09:30:41 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by -dead-
Well freedom incarnate is a rather limited freedom:

1. You're stuck with going where the roads do, which means relying essentially on the government.



My Nissan often travels where the trail would scarcely be called a road.  A cow path maybe...  So often I rely as much on a cow as I do the government.  :)

Quote
Originally posted by -dead-

 (try driving to Alaska or Hawaii without paperwork, permission...or anything)



We can drive to Alaska, just need a drivers license/birth certificate to enter and leave Canada..no permission necessary just proof of citizenship to speed the process....and if there were bridge to Hawaii...I could drive there.  I suppose I can board a boat of some kind with my car and once I get there...drive without paperwork.

Quote
Originally posted by -dead-

3. Owning a car is also rather limited as a freedom as you need cash to buy it and run it: paying the government tax, paying for the fuel etc etc. Hardly an inalienable right.



We don't pay a 'government tax' but rather a state sales tax, just like buying anything.  And since I work for the public education system...the tax returns to me as my salary.  :)


It isn't the car itself or the logistics of getting to point A and point B, but rather the idea of individual free will and 'discovery'.  I don't have to wait for a schedule and ride with 50 people to my destination, I, of my on volition, can go anywhere anytime independent of anyone else, any government permission, anything....


This is a very interesting discussion, I don't mean to say that my ideas of freedom are 'better'.  This is just of the freedoms I'm thankful to have.  I'm interested to hear more of your ideas.
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Offline lazs2

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the three things I harp on...
« Reply #66 on: January 29, 2007, 08:45:30 AM »
dead... you need to live in a free country for a change and then compare.

  Somehow..  I don't think that even living here would help tho... you would do like so many socialist blue people here do and make yourself a prisoner in a large city and try to vote away the rights of those of us who prefer to be free.

you define freedom as...  freedom to not make decisions... freedom to not have choices.

lazs