Are American posters on this BBS a minority

[lukster]

There are a LOT of private schools in Texas and from what I hear and read their standards and results are far superior to the public schools in Texas. Will vouchers corrupt their current standards? Some perhaps but for most I think not. In that I disagree with you Skuzzy.

[BluKitty]

Well Texas public education is a joke.  At the high-smart end you can sometimes find some good programs, but it is rare.  At the low-not-so-smart end, kids are going to school to learn how to take the TAAS test.  

I grew up in Texas.  I went to public schools mostly, but private schools weren't much better in my experiance.  

Not sure how to fix it, but it seems like a people and policy problem.  Most smart people don't stay in teaching long in Texas, unless they have a real heart for it.  I've known quite  few people who gradurated in Texas, tried teaching for a few years and moved to other work.  They left teaching due to bad policies, bad administration, and bad pay.

[Skuzzy]

The only way to straighten out the school system in Texas is by attacking the actual problems.  Vouchers do not fix any problems.  They just allow parents and school administrations to change the implementation of the current problems.

1)  The state gives money to schools based on how many they pass.

. To this end, schools use grading on the curve.  
. They allow students to do 'extra credit' to bolster sagging grades.  
. The teachers grade book is allowed to be arbitrarily changed by committee.  If the teacher does not agree, they can be suspended.
. Students are not only taught the TAAS test, they even given copies with answers on it to take home and memorize.  Even the state turns a blind eye to this as these scores are something they want to brag about to the nation.  "See, our education system works!".
.  To further promote this, there are a significant number of parents who will not sit still while thier child has lower than average grades.  So they pressure the teachers and administration to find a way to bolster thier child's grades.
.  Schools take an entire class and apply a bonus based on the average of all the students.  The lower the average, the higher the bonus.
.  Schools arbitrarily apply a grade point increase across the line for all students of the school.

All the above stem from one thing.  The real problem is all the above  processes have gotten so entrenched in the school systems, it is going to take years to undo it.  But until it is undone, the school systems in Texas will continue to get worse.  They will continue to produce ignorant and illiterate kids.

In view of what is happening, vouchers will simply make things worse.  Now, not only would the school be vying for the states money, they would then create new processes to vie for the parents money.

[lazs2]

They do the same here.   The state get's money on how many kids it passes.. kids leave high school with about what was an eighth grade education of 40 years ago.

We have trade schools here too  but they are not supported by tax money like the junior college is.   this is very unfair in my opinion.   they should get the same chunk community college gets.   worse.. are those community college teachers incapable of trade school teaching?   they used to do it...

community can't compete with trade schools any more than public school can compete with private.

We don't need to teach non english speakers and we don't need to teach illegals if we are going to be paying for it with taxes.

We need 12 month schools... if teachers taught 12 months a year 8 hours a day then they would get paid a lot more and... we would be getting our moneys worth..

As it is.. they are getting full time pay for part time work... that is why they are so defensive about it.

lazs

[eskimo2]

Most states require a master’s degree to teach.  I don’t think there is a teacher at my school who has less than five years of education; most have well over six, I have over 10.  Teachers are required to continue their education regularly.  For the most part, teachers pay for their own education and take classes on their own time.  I know many professionals who are trained and take classes on their company’s expense.  My best friend works for the FAA; they pay for his airfare, pay for his classes, pay for his hotel room and rental car.  This is done on a normal workday, for which he is paid.  This is how things are often done in much of the business world.  

Teachers are contracted to work about 80% as many days as a typical worker in the US.  I know a full time postman who earns twice what a starting teacher at my school earns.  He has a high school diploma.  I know a full time school bus driver who earns considerably more than the postman.  Even the part time bus drivers earn way more than I do.  I’d love to earn 80% of what other professions pay (that require six or more years of education).  Heck, I’d love to earn I’d love to earn 80% of what the dang bus driver earns.  

Even if we overlook the fact that teachers must spend extra hours on weekdays, weekends and throughout the summer preparing lessons, grading, completing BS required paperwork, attending meetings, conferences, training, extra curricular activities, etc., teachers do not earn 80% of what other occupations that have similar educational requirements; not even close.

Something is wrong here.  While I was putting myself through college, postmen and bus drivers were earning a good salary and building up years towards retirement.  While I’m paying off my student loans on my low salary, they are investing their extra money.

At my school, we have two teachers who are single; their lifestyles are humble and meager.  With the exception of myself, the other teachers are all the second incomes in their families.  I am the only teacher at my school who is raising a family on a teacher’s income.  My salary qualifies my family for a variety of financial aid.  

Ten plus years of college… something is wrong here.

[lazs2]

again...  education does not entitle you to earnings... a guy with 10 years of liberal arts schooling is worth whatever someone is willing to pay...

performance is how you should get paid and...for whatever reason..  your performance is going down while your wages are going up.

I know of no public school teacher who works 80% of the same time as a full time worker... when the school is empty the janitor is there... it is what?  groundhog day? no teachers cars in the lot....  How many days to the rest of you guys get off for xmas?

How many holidays do the rest of you real full time workers get a year?  How many would you get if you only worked nine months a year?

How many of you have 10 years of more in your profession before you really got good at it?   Is experiance worth less than education?  is learning by doing better or worse?

I have no degree and I bet I could teach a number of classes better than half the teachers doing it...  

As for trade schools.. if we are paying for public schools then there should be a trade school option for high school... they would take basic math (or specialized math) and other courses that pertained to the trade... a welder would take math... etc.     I bet you could find plenty of trades people willing to teach a trade for the full time salary and part time work and bennies of a teacher.

lazs

[lukster]

Vouchers are about competition and motivation. The large majority of our public schools have no or little  competition. Competition is healthy and will cut away the decay in our current educational system.

[eskimo2]

Lazs,

Most US workers work 240 days a year, teachers are paid to work 190+.

You might be able to find some teachers who work closer to 180 days, but most that I know work 190+.  I work over 190.

Teachers are not required to have random college coursework; they must complete a specific program of classes.  Many other professions work this way, the stuff that you learn in college prepares you for your job…  You wouldn’t understand.

I don’t think you could cut it as a teacher.  You think that you know so much?  You talk and write so much about education and what is wrong; why don’t you become a teacher and show us all how it is done?  You couldn’t hack it.  You probably wouldn’t get hired and if you did you probably would get fired.

You don’t have a college degree, and you don’t value college education… interesting.

[Skuzzy]

Originally posted by lukster
Vouchers are about competition and motivation. The large majority of our public schools have no or little  competition. Competition is healthy and will cut away the decay in our current educational system.

Oh, and the form of competition is who can put together the best marketing plan to lure parents to the school and keep the students there.

Tell me, where in that would the quality of education actually improve?  There is no yardstick to measure the quality of education in a school.  So how are you to know what school actually has a good education program?

Or do you just keep bouncing your kids from one school to another until you find one?  Oh yeah, that is good for thier social development skills.

As long as you make it all about money, the education system has no reason to improve the quality of education.  Quite the opposite.

[lukster]

Skuzzy there are plenty of very good private schools. While the teachers at these private schools may not be in it solely for the money the schools are. Contrary to what many complaining public school teachers would have you believe, success can be easily and accurately measured and many of these private schools are very successful.

[Skuzzy]

Lukster, I never said all schools were bad.  What I said and claim is the current situation with many public schools will not be corrected by the use of vouchers.  

Why?  Because the lion share of parents are content to look at only the grades.  And having vouchers does not get your kids accepted to just any private school.

Just FYI.  Grapevine High School is a very highly rate high school.  Yet it is one of worst educational schools I have ever witnessed.  17 high school football coaches pretty much tell you where thier priorities are.  

Care to enlighten me as to how you are going to go about rating schools?  You cannot depend on any tests, as those are easily circumvented by the administration of the schools.  So, how do you know what schools are best?  How would you find the best schools for your kids?

[lukster]

For me it's academic, my kids are all grown with one still in college. I'm not suggesting the elimination of public schools. Parents who take their children's education seriously will do the research to find the best school for their child. For those that don't care or are unable to discern between schools there's the public school system. The ones who will benefit from vouchers the most are those who are stuck in a district like Wilmer Hutchens.

[lazs2]

eskimo... What do I say about teachers that is wrong?   They are part time workers getting a full time salary.   Work from eight to five with two fifteen minute breaks and an hour lunch...  go home and forget the classroom... if you need more time then stay late and get overtime.

I am confused tho.. first you tell me to get a job as a teacher and then you tell me that I can't because I don't have a degree and would probly get fired in any case.

I don't have a degree.   I have a lot of specialized training and education...probly enough units to more than scrape up an AA if I filled out some of the worthless units like PE or something... but who cares?    

And... I probly would get fired.. even tho that is allmost impossible in kalifornia schools for acredited  teachers... only 1 in 900 is ever fired...  saint indeed!

I would have more respect for teachers if more of em did get fired.  If they got fired for doing the right thing and teaching the kids.   I would throw kids out that disrupted the class and flunk those who wouldn't pass the class... so yeah... I probly would get fired.   big deal... been out of work before.   gone in complete different career directions before.  no big deal unless your a wimp who never left the womb of academics.

I am not saying that about you.. I know that you moved to a private school.

which brings me to skuzzy...  I think with vouchers.. the allready good private schools would get even better and the competition would make the public schools perform.

can't believe you public school teachers don't agree with me that there are kids who shouldn't be in school.  

lazs

[Shuckins]

Actually, I do agree with you Lasz.  Arkansas' State Legislature got a wild hair up its' you-know-what several years ago and raised the age at which a kid could quit school from 16 to 18.

I have always felt that this was a move that was counterproductive.  There are some kids that are not cut out for academics and would be better off if they were allowed to quit and go into the workforce....or failing that, be allowed to enroll in a technical training school of some type.  This type of kid, if forced to stay in the public school, often just goes through the motions or causes problems in the classroom..

That is a viewpoint that is held by a surprising number of teachers....they firmly believe that such kids should be released from school if they so desire it.  It's the ivory tower idiots who head the State Department of Education that push this moronic claptrap off on those of us actually manning the classrooms.

In regards to the statement you made that you would throw the kids out of class who were causing disruptions, I must say I couldn't agree with that sentiment more.  The fly-in-the-ointment with this issue is that each public school gets X number of dollars for each child enrolled in its' system, so the superintendent, principals, and school boards are loathe to actually expel one of the little darlings for any infraction short of threatening another human being with death or dismemberment.  If they're also an ath-uh-lete it is doubly hard to get rid of one of them.

Private schools aren't saddled with a lot of this type of baggage.  Catholic schools in particular have an enviable reputation for turning out excellent graduates.  Vouchers are the only hope many poor parents have of pulling their children out of positively horrendous inner-city schools and placing them in a decent academic setting.

Another problem with public schools is the movement to place children in gargantuan school systems.  Many of the drug and security problems that plague public schools are exacerbate by the fact that the campus itself is like a small city.  Ideally, at least in my opinion, schools should have no more than two or three hundred students on the campus.  It's a lot easier to educate and guarante the safety of students when there aren't 2000 of them wandering the halls during school break.

Before I get totally away from the subject, let me say that many school district boards and superintendents need to develop the type of backbone it takes to stand up to arrogant and pushy parents.  Many of the discipline problems at school originate from spoiled brats whose parents continually run interference for them, regardless of what the little monsters have done.  Make no mistake about it, many parents refuse to believe that their darlings are capable of doing the types of things that they do at school.  

Trust me on this, many of you that are parents might not recognize your children if you could install a hidden surveillance camera in their classrooms and watch their behavior.  It's as if aliens abduct your child on the way to school and substitute an evil doppelganger.

This is especially true of junior-high kids.  I'd rather try to teach 100 adults in a single classroom than 20 kids of that age.  There are a lot of days when these developing human beings are incapable of rational thought.

As for getting fifteen minute breaks, I only got one, in the middle of the morning.  My lunch breaks lasted 25 minutes, from bell to bell.  If you didn't eat fast you just didn't eat.

Are there problems in the public schools?  Sure.  Do they still manage to provide an education for our children?  Absolutely...all you have to do is reach out and grab it.  Teachers merely light the path to knowledge.  It's up to the students to walk it.

Regards, Shuckins