Author Topic: Global Warming  (Read 14447 times)

Offline lukster

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Global Warming
« on: January 23, 2007, 11:00:06 AM »
Looks like we don't have an active global warming fearists thread going currently and I found this dripping with irony and perhaps a little alarming but still amusing.

The irony is in the call for "the American Meteorological Society decertify meteorologists who don't warn about climate change." and yet she follows up by saying "Freedom of scientific expression is essential".

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,245581,00.html

Coldest winter we've had here in Texas in the last few years.

Offline midnight Target

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« Reply #1 on: January 23, 2007, 11:36:09 AM »
Quote
"If a meteorologist has an AMS Seal of Approval, which is used to confer legitimacy to TV meteorologists, then meteorologists have a responsibility to truly educate themselves on the science of global warming,"


Sounds reasonable to me.

Offline lukster

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« Reply #2 on: January 23, 2007, 11:41:32 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by midnight Target
Sounds reasonable to me.


The unreasonable part is where she calls for the discreditation of those who do not agree with her "science". These fanatics usually refuse to acknowledge the impact our sun has on the situation. There is much evidence to indicate that it is the source of increasing warming throughout our solar system.



http://www.nasa.gov/centers/goddard/news/topstory/2003/0313irradiance.html
« Last Edit: January 23, 2007, 11:50:10 AM by lukster »

Offline kamilyun

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« Reply #3 on: January 23, 2007, 11:51:49 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by lukster
These fanatics usually refuse to acknowledge the impact our sun has on the situation. There is much evidence to indicate that it is the source of increasing warming throughout our solar system.


Could you explain how the sun is increasing global warming to me?  Linky or something?

<----------idiot

I always thought the sun + carbon dioxide was the source of global warming.  Carbon dioxide is IR (heat) active and therefore captures the sun's photons.

But maybe the sun heats up as it gets older and is pushing more energy our way?  I think that violates one of the Laws of Thermodynamics.  But I don't know.  Science isn't really my thing :)

Edit:  Thanks for link.

Offline lasersailor184

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« Reply #4 on: January 23, 2007, 11:56:13 AM »
Or that heating and cooling follows cycles.  We know that it does.  The question is what causes it.  

The same people who would have you believe that global warming was the result of man are the same people who would have you believe that the global cooling 40-50 years ago was the result of man.  Maybe they are right, maybe not.
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Offline tedrbr

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« Reply #5 on: January 23, 2007, 12:22:45 PM »
Um, actually, the sun is not a cause of "global warming", which might be better described as a Climate Shift, for the kinds of weather we are going to see in the future.

And, not so much the sun, which does have periods of greater output, but mostly associated with an 11-year cycle, but the Earth's orbit around the sun has three cycles:

*41,000 year variation in tilt of Earth's axis --- between 22.2 and 24.5 degrees.... we are at 23.5 degrees "heading toward the cold end".

* 26,000 year precession of Earth's orbit around the sun..... which changes where the tilt of the Earth happens in relation to the distance from the sun....the Earth';s orbit around the sun is not circular.  IOW, the tilt of the Artic toward the sun for summer can happen when the Earth is closer to the sun (warmer), or furthest from the sun (colder)....  we're several thousand years toward the colder summer situation.

* 100,000 year variation in eccentricity of the Earth's orbit.... or how big a difference there is between closest and furthest approach to the sun in our orbit.  Also past the mid way point toward being more distant from the sun at times.... ie a colder season.

These three cycles led to some sci fi writers creating stories about Earth headed into another ice age, back in the 60's and 70's, before the effects of the changing atmosphere and global warming began to be sturdied.  These 3 cycles in conjunction have resulted in the ice ages and melting events in the past.

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Offline lukster

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« Reply #6 on: January 23, 2007, 12:41:08 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by tedrbr
Um, actually, the sun is not a cause of "global warming", which might be better described as a Climate Shift, for the kinds of weather we are going to see in the future.

And, not so much the sun, which does have periods of greater output, but mostly associated with an 11-year cycle, but the Earth's orbit around the sun has three cycles:

*41,000 year variation in tilt of Earth's axis --- between 22.2 and 24.5 degrees.... we are at 23.5 degrees "heading toward the cold end".

* 26,000 year precession of Earth's orbit around the sun..... which changes where the tilt of the Earth happens in relation to the distance from the sun....the Earth';s orbit around the sun is not circular.  IOW, the tilt of the Artic toward the sun for summer can happen when the Earth is closer to the sun (warmer), or furthest from the sun (colder)....  we're several thousand years toward the colder summer situation.

* 100,000 year variation in eccentricity of the Earth's orbit.... or how big a difference there is between closest and furthest approach to the sun in our orbit.  Also past the mid way point toward being more distant from the sun at times.... ie a colder season.

These three cycles led to some sci fi writers creating stories about Earth headed into another ice age, back in the 60's and 70's, before the effects of the changing atmosphere and global warming began to be sturdied.  These 3 cycles in conjunction have resulted in the ice ages and melting events in the past.

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Of course without the sun there would be no "global warming".  ;) Nasa says that solar radiation has been increasing in the lull between the  periodic sunspot activities which they claim could affect our global climate. To ignore this important fact in regards to climatology is to have a political agenda.

Offline tedrbr

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« Reply #7 on: January 23, 2007, 12:43:57 PM »
Now, those that would have you believe that mankind is not capable to changing his environment to such a degree to change the planet's climate, would also have you believe that smoking cigarettes does not cause cancer.
They look at the globe and see a great big world..... but forget only a very thin layer of that globe is where everything lives on the planet.  


Now.... global warming, or climate change, is the effect that pumping huge quantities of greenhouse gases into the atmosphere has had on the Earth's atmospheres ability to retain solar radiation ---- thus heat.  This began, by some studies, with the agricultural revolution, which put more methane in the air --- but this was a minor bounce ---, but really got a kick with the Industrial Revolution.

We are thickening the atmosphere, which is warming the planet a few degrees, which warms the world's oceans a few degrees (not a minor feat), which in turn melts the glaciers, sea ice, and shelf ice around the world.  

There is one notable cycle still in effect here.... we are in the middle of an interglacial period, and the thermal pulse of coming out of the last ice age is still migrating down through the glaciers, which probably makes them a little more susceptible to melting than they would be otherwise.

This causes sea levels to rise, as well as become less salty (which can stall out the "great oceanic conveyor" flow of warm equatorial waters to the North Atlantic..... which is how global warming can cause an mini-ice age for the American NE and Northern Europe.   Lack of pack ice in the Arctic is already starting to drown Polar Bears in significant numbers, which may go extinct in a decade or two at this rate.  Shelf ice breaking up in the Antarctic has already cause low lying island nations to begin to evacuate to higher ground.  Serious loss of the ice shelfs or Greenland's glaciers can raise sea levels between 10 feet and 40 feet.  

Now 10 to 40 feet may not sound like much, but that has nearly half the world's population running for higher ground.  That shuts down every port around the world, where goods are shipped in and out, every fishing processing plant, and probably drowns out 1/3rd of the industrial centers around the world.   A serious lack of industrial goods and food shortages (read: famine).  Oil terminals and refineries mostly gone as well.


Another worry is the permafrost in Siberia, and the methane stored in the deep sea beds.  Either of these starts to "defrost" (which has started in Siberia) and more methane (a powerful greenhouse gas), can be released into the atmosphere than humanity could ever hope to release by it's activities.  This will cause a relatively strong rise in world-wide temperatures.  ALOT more melting of ice would result, and a rise in sea levels of 50 to 200 feet.

Now, I prefer climate change or shift to global warming because of the effects it would have:

Further desertification around the world, and the warmer air dries out the ground.  All that extra heat in the oceans creates more and stronger storms around the world.  Severe winds.  Tornadoes.  Hurricanes.  Lightening storms.  Drought in more locations around the world.  Areas dependent on seasonal snow pack and glacier melt off for their water go without water.

Higher temperatures also bring more tropical diseases to higher latitudes (we are seeing this now already).  This will only continue to increase.

Human factor.... War. War over resources, water, territory.

And all the evidence is there.  From species migrating to northern attitudes and higher altitudes around the world, to rising sea levels, to data collected around the world on temperatures, ice thickness, and so forth.


Some would prefer to ignore it.  Others worry that acknowledging it would cause them financial loss.  Many just can't get their itty-bitty minds around the numbers or concepts involved.

Offline lukster

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« Reply #8 on: January 23, 2007, 12:47:11 PM »
Nasa's record includes some tangible results like putting men on the moon. Please list for me some tangible results of a prominent Global Warming Alarmist. Let's ignore the guy who invented the internet for now.

Offline tedrbr

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Re: Global Warming
« Reply #9 on: January 23, 2007, 12:48:47 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by lukster
Looks like we don't have an active global warming fearists thread going currently and I found this dripping with irony and perhaps a little alarming but still amusing.

The irony is in the call for "the American Meteorological Society decertify meteorologists who don't warn about climate change." and yet she follows up by saying "Freedom of scientific expression is essential".

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,245581,00.html

Coldest winter we've had here in Texas in the last few years.


This sounds like a hyper-reaction to stories last year about scientists essentially being "gagged" and forced to edit research papers and findings to raise doubt about global warming.

And "global warming" is a misnomer for some people...... consider it a Climate Change or Shift.  The Earth overall grows warmer, but the New England states and Northern Europe could actually experience a min-ice age as a result.  What warmer world wide temperatures does mean is more energy in the atmosphere, which means more storms and more severe weather:
powerful hurricanes, tornadoes at any time of the year, droughts, and more powerful storm systems..... including snow storms and cold fronts.

Offline Yeager

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« Reply #10 on: January 23, 2007, 12:51:45 PM »
Im with Gore on this one.  Pollution, greenhouse effect and the proven fact that the worlds reserves of ice covered terrain are dwindling all point to the same conclusion: Human industry and fossil fuel burning heating and transportation are acting to threaten our longterm survival in the very near term.
"If someone flips you the bird and you don't know it, does it still count?" - SLIMpkns

Offline lukster

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Re: Re: Global Warming
« Reply #11 on: January 23, 2007, 12:54:10 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by tedrbr
This sounds like a hyper-reaction to stories last year about scientists essentially being "gagged" and forced to edit research papers and findings to raise doubt about global warming.

And "global warming" is a misnomer for some people...... consider it a Climate Change or Shift.  The Earth overall grows warmer, but the New England states and Northern Europe could actually experience a min-ice age as a result.  What warmer world wide temperatures does mean is more energy in the atmosphere, which means more storms and more severe weather:
powerful hurricanes, tornadoes at any time of the year, droughts, and more powerful storm systems..... including snow storms and cold fronts.


I think most people understand that "Global Warming" means climate changes. I take it then you have no problem with this prominent expert's very recent (not last year) exclamation that meteorolgist who fail to sound the alarm should have their acreditation revoked?

Offline tedrbr

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« Reply #12 on: January 23, 2007, 01:04:40 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by lukster
Nasa's record includes some tangible results like putting men on the moon. Please list for me some tangible results of a prominent Global Warming Alarmist. Let's ignore the guy who invented the internet for now.


NASA's record also includes a nightmare space station that originally was going to take 8 years and $8 billion dollars to build and orbit, and Space Shuttle that would make 100 trips per year for $100 per pound to LEO, not to mention many pretty (and expensive) graphics of the National Aerospace Plane which never went anywhere.

What's NASA's next plan to get into space and back to the moon?  Syndicated version of the Apollo program.

And I always love the "prove it" responses.....

Union Of Concerned Scientists
http://www.ucsusa.org/global_warming/

The United States Department of Defense Report
http://www.grist.org/pdf/AbruptClimateChange2003.pdf

The Hot Map
http://www.climatehotmap.org/

Tree Huggers Unite!
http://www.stopglobalwarming.org/default.asp

United States Environmental Protection Agency
http://www.epa.gov/climatechange/

And the Guy you wanted to ignore
 http://www.climatecrisis.net/


edumatate yerself!

Offline Debonair

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« Reply #13 on: January 23, 2007, 01:11:00 PM »
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Originally posted by tedrbr
....26,000 year precession of Earth's orbit around the sun..... which changes where the tilt of the Earth happens in relation to the distance from the sun....the Earth';s orbit around the sun is not circular.  IOW, the tilt of the Artic toward the sun for summer can happen when the Earth is closer to the sun (warmer), or furthest from the sun (colder)....  we're several thousand years toward the colder summer situation....


although the earth is further from the sun during the northern hemisphere's summer (furthest in the 1st week of july), kepler's 3rd law of orbits dictates that our summers are longer as well, but with reduced daily high temperatures.  The net effect is none.  OTOH, the southern hemisphere has short extra hot summers, which dictates that the southern hemisphere is for noobs from noobzealand & agtentinoob.  it sux

Offline Hornet33

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« Reply #14 on: January 23, 2007, 01:17:52 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Yeager
Im with Gore on this one.  Pollution, greenhouse effect and the proven fact that the worlds reserves of ice covered terrain are dwindling all point to the same conclusion: Human industry and fossil fuel burning heating and transportation are acting to threaten our longterm survival in the very near term.


NOT trying to bash here but, people with this outlook I consider one of the major causes. The modern tree hugging hippies that want world peace, "say NO to war" they want people to quit doing things that will shorten their lives, they want the cure for cancer and stuff are full of crap.

You know why the world is so polluted???? BECAUSE THERE ARE TOO MANY FREAKING PEOPLE ON IT!!!!!!! Want to save the environment??? Pick up a rifle and go to war and kill a couple of hundred people. This world NEEDS the poputation culled by a good percentage and then we would be OK for anouther hundred years. Hell I had a heart attack and still smoke. I served in the first Gulf War and did my fair share then. I'm trying to do my part.
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