Spitfire

[Angus]

I remember postin a question about turn circles and calculations and getting good answers. Was years ago, but should be able to find.
I posted and the title was something like "G load and turn calculations".
Anyway, this of the Ki61:

"It's not that slow. It WILL turn with Spit 5's"

I think this is not correct but would be nice to know. Spent quite some time turning a Spit VIII with a Ki61 yesterday, - quite a few circles and I had him.
And the Spit V turns quite a bit better...

[EagleDNY]

You've got me thinking more about this, and you are right - the faster spitfire can turn a 360 in a shorter time even though the circle isn't as tight.  I see this phenomenon all the time when our horses make a move on the outside going into the far turn and come out in the lead going into the stretch  -- they are a little slower than spitfires, but the principle is the same.  A faster movement rate around a larger circle can produce a greater angular change per second (and quite a healthy payoff in the end).

EagleDNY
$.02

[Widewing]

Originally posted by EagleDNY
A faster movement rate around a larger circle can produce a greater angular change per second (and quite a healthy payoff in the end).

Which is why it is quite useful to understand the concept of Corner Velocity.

My regards,

Widewing

[Kweassa]

A faster movement rate around a larger circle can produce a greater angular change per second (and quite a healthy payoff in the end).

 It's also a double edged sword.

 In terms of offense, if you travel at a faster movement rate around a larger circle against a tighter turning enemy plane, it means you will soon cross his 3-9 line. It gives the defending enemy plane a very favorable opportunity to turn into you and reverse the situation by scissors.  

 In terms of defense, if you travel at a faster movement rate around a larger circle against a tighter turning enemy plane, it means you can't turn tight enough to stay out of the enemy's lead angle. You may ultimately be able to turn out of his reach with a faster turning speed.. but the chances are you'll be shot down before that happens. The enemy has a gun solution on you.

 ...

 IMO, this is the reason why so often the simplistic turn radius, is usually more important than either the turn rate or turn speed. Maintaining a better turning rate may greatly benefit when a pure 1vs1 duel happens, with two planes of comparable performance starting off from an equal altitude and entering a classic merge. However, in the no-holds-barred world of MA combat, its almost always either you attacking someone else, or someone else attacking you. More ofthen than not you rarely have the leisure to stay around your favorable corner speed, and in many cases will be forced to turn as tight as possible.

 I've felt the importance of maintaining an overall better turning rate first-hand, during those instances when I was forced into a 1vs1 situation against better pilots. It makes a lot of difference in those kinds of fights.  But considering such fights are rare, and more often than not avoidable, frankly I think its not a very practical concept IMO. Its almost always the radius of turn - instant or sustained - that is important.

[moot]

Dweebfire, dweebfire, burning bright...

[ForrestS]

Hey whats the most manuverbale spitfire?  

[Benny Moore]

Originally posted by Kweassa
In terms of defense, if you travel at a faster movement rate around a larger circle against a tighter turning enemy plane, it means you can't turn tight enough to stay out of the enemy's lead angle. You may ultimately be able to turn out of his reach with a faster turning speed.. but the chances are you'll be shot down before that happens. The enemy has a gun solution on you.

 IMO, this is the reason why so often the simplistic turn radius, is usually more important than either the turn rate or turn speed. Maintaining a better turning rate may greatly benefit when a pure 1vs1 duel happens, with two planes of comparable performance starting off from an equal altitude and entering a classic merge. However, in the no-holds-barred world of MA combat, its almost always either you attacking someone else, or someone else attacking you. More ofthen than not you rarely have the leisure to stay around your favorable corner speed, and in many cases will be forced to turn as tight as possible.

 I've felt the importance of maintaining an overall better turning rate first-hand, during those instances when I was forced into a 1vs1 situation against better pilots. It makes a lot of difference in those kinds of fights.  But considering such fights are rare, and more often than not avoidable, frankly I think its not a very practical concept IMO. Its almost always the radius of turn - instant or sustained - that is important.

I've noticed this.  For years I've been trying to master the ability to effectively turn at my corner turning speed while the other guy turns at maximum angle of attack with full flaps.  I've never been able to actually out-turn a roughly equal pilot in a similar airplane while doing that (even going around and around for minutes), but I have been able to suddenly move into the vertical a second before he fires, and watch him wallow in his now-inferior energy state.  It's my second best defensive maneuver, actually.  I'll try to post a film sometime.

[Nilsen]

Fly spitfires, lalas and nikis all ya want. Id rather land one kill in most other planes than 10 in any of the 3 dweeb rides.

If you like quake or counterstrike then the 3 dweeb rides are perfect.

[Knegel]

Originally posted by VooWho

Once I was doing 500mph in a dive with a P51D and over shot a spit 16 flying straight probably doing about 275-325mph and I pulled up and climbed at 525mph and the 16 beat me at a climb and shot me down. I don't know how, but it did. I climbed like 6k and started stalling (HEHE I got this noob) then I look back and his 1.2, 1.1, 1.0, 900, 800, 700, then BOOM! Thats why I hate it so much. Its just a bug always following you around, and you can't get it away from you.

How do you think a 190A8 pilot think about the 16??

What you describe happen to the 190A8 pilot even if a HurriIIc is on his tail.

Otherwise, i dont know many people who call all Spits a dweeb plane.

When the SpitV got derated a bit(the former dweeb Spit) the Spit16 came and show a better turn performence and stall handling than the full wing Spits, what afaik is a real big mistake.

But to talk about Spits as dweeb planes in general is absolut BS!!

To survive in a SpitV and even SpitIXc need a pretty good defencive skill, cause this planes are so slow.

Sure they fly nice, turn tight etc, but there is only the Spit16 left that behave very strange, but in oposide to the La7 i can outrun it in a 190A8.  

There are other, more dangerus Dweeb planes!!
Tempest, F4U-4(mainly due to the "magical flaps"), F4U-1C and La7 comes to mind, but even the HurriIIc we can call a dweeb plane, if we compare it with the other 1941-mid44 planes. At low level it outclimb the following planes particular by easy: P40, SpitV, SpitIXc, A6M2, A6M5, F4F, 109E, maybe more. The following outclimb it by a little: 109F, 109G6, 190A5, 190A8 maybe more. This in combination with its tight turn and very small E-bleed make it to one of the best 1941/42 fighters. In a 190A8 you can get crazy while tying to get into a advanced positon. Specialy if we compare the SpitV with the HurrII we can see the strange behaviour.

But there are even dweeb 109´s. The 109F4 almost perform with a Spit14 and overcome the 190A8 by easy. Even in a dive the 190A8 have probelms to get rid of the F4 althought it have almost 500HP more power and 1500kg more weight and even after the 190A8 did gain 2k distance and start to a smooth upzoom with more speed, the 109F still will outzoom it.

If i compare the 109G6(our DB605 seems to have 1475PS) with the F4 we see a same strange result. The G6 have more power, more inertia, but the F4 outzoom the G6 and even the G2 fly rather like with 1310HP in relation to the F4. While the G2 perform rather good vs the SpitIXc and other mid/late war planes.


Greetings,

Knegel

[Knegel]

Originally posted by Benny Moore
I've noticed this.  For years I've been trying to master the ability to effectively turn at my corner turning speed while the other guy turns at maximum angle of attack with full flaps.  I've never been able to actually out-turn a roughly equal pilot in a similar airplane while doing that (even going around and around for minutes), but I have been able to suddenly move into the vertical a second before he fires, and watch him wallow in his now-inferior energy state.  It's my second best defensive maneuver, actually.  I'll try to post a film sometime.

Hi Benny,

there are only a few propeller planes that have a better turn performence at higher speed than the current stallspeed, at least while a powered flight.

Almost only planes with a bad propeller for slow speed(no constant speed prop) will have this effect.

In oposide to Jet planes, propeller planes in general dont have a other cornerspeed than the stallspeed, while horizontal turning.

Thats caused by the decreasing propeller thrust with increasing speed, while the jet thrust remain rather constant. Only a few planes gain more drag advantage by flying faster, than they lose thrust at same time.

But to outturn a oponent by using the corner speed even dont work in jets, cause althought you might have more G as result, you aslo use a wider radius, so the turn rate dont will increase.

Though, to know the cornerspeed, or in case of the propeller planes, the speed of smalest drag, is  very usefull for a more tactical dogfight. While B&Z but also while defencive manouvers thats very usefull.

Actually iam not sure if this effects are realy modeled in AH anyway.


Greetings,

Knegel

[Debonair]

Originally posted by Knegel
....there are only a few propeller planes that have a better turn performence at higher speed than the current stallspeed, at least while a powered flight....

i think if you start banking at stall speed you'll either start decending or begin a spin cause you lose vertical lift, plus you lose pull some Gs so there is more weight to carry around the turn...

[Benny Moore]

My biggest problem is not knowing the weights and power settings.  For instance, testing of the real P-38 indicated that corner turning speed was 230 M.P.H.  However, that changes with weight, power, and altitude.  I have no idea what it is for my 16,000 pound P-38L on the deck at War Emergency Power.

[Debonair]

pylits in combat weren't looking it up on a table or e6b, they were just owning it around the circle fast as they could.  if u watch the DG you can find your best configuration for turning pretty fast

[Knegel]

Originally posted by Debonair
i think if you start banking at stall speed you'll either start decending or begin a spin cause you lose vertical lift, plus you lose pull some Gs so there is more weight to carry around the turn...

Of course you 1st bank and then aproache the stall while a turn.

Benny, simply get the plane close to a stall, then you will get the best result regarding the radius and turnrate while a sustained turn. Of course you will turn much better as long as you have swing.

Best sustained turn speed is what you are looking for, not "cornerspeed".

The speed of smalest drag you need if you wanna make effective E-fight, cause at this speed the airframe turn and climb most effective, but as i wrote before, in  a propeller plane this dont result into a real "cornerspeed", like in Jets.  In Jets the cornerspeed is also tend to be the best climb and turn speed, cause the thrust is rather constant, while the thrust of a propeller plane decrease much with increasing speed.

So althought the speed of smalest drag is maybe at 230mph, the best climbspeed is at around 160mph, simply cause the propeller produce much more thrust at 160mph than at 230mph.  The drag advantage at 230mph dont count much in relation to the thrust lost.  
Only if you be already fast and you wanna keep as many energy as you can, you can use the speed of smalest drag.

Greetings,

Knegel

[Trikky]

To answer the original question here is a film demonstrating the dweebiness of a Spit 9. Its 30 mins long but the dweebiness in question happens in the first 10 to 12mins.

The highlights are -

Diving on a 3.5k Spit 9 from 10k in a Yak U but unable to catch it even though I reach 500 mph.

Spit 9 accelerating by 60 mph even though in a sustained flat turn pulling up to 5gs.

Accelerating by 127mph in 5 secs in level flight after turn fighting on the deck.

Approx 1,429 attempts at HO's in 12 mins.