Author Topic: When did the Cold War start?  (Read 2707 times)

Offline john9001

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 9453
When did the Cold War start?
« Reply #75 on: February 03, 2007, 07:36:43 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Boroda
Exactly, trying to get your piece of pie when all the job was already done by Soviets.


it was Stalin that wanted a second front to take the pressure off the Russian army. But you won't believe me.

actually Russia never fought in WW2, they fought "the great patriotic war"

Offline Estel

  • Copper Member
  • **
  • Posts: 347
Re: When did the Cold War start?
« Reply #76 on: February 03, 2007, 08:07:55 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by 68Hawk
...
When did the Cold War start?  At what point in time, or what event?
....
I'm gonna say the Yalta conference, when the postwar speres of influence were decieded.  

What do you think?


I can't agree with you. First of all, Yalta-Teheran-Potsdam conferences materials never shown any problems in understanding political problems between G3. The most problematic side was army question. As an example - the second front opening. Logistic questions and so on. The political debate, was only once. When G3 (oh-ah great democratic countrys....) divided Europe with new borders. But anyway, that time there wasn't a problem, which in future could be a reason for a Cold War. I think that the reasons should be found in 1946-1948 period. Marshall Plan era. The time, when the world economical leadership could provide more accebilities to set "appropriate" political regimes in the postwar Europe. As you understand, after Yalta, there was no legal possibilities to "change the map". USA and GB should play fair. Because of they leaved their signs under the new world map. The only way for them to exclude the USSR from the new political world system, was to set special economical and political rules. And they began it from Fulton. So, march 1946 is a proper date.

Offline Boroda

  • Persona Non Grata
  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 5755
When did the Cold War start?
« Reply #77 on: February 03, 2007, 08:09:36 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by john9001
it was Stalin that wanted a second front to take the pressure off the Russian army. But you won't believe me.


So-called "allies" promised second front in 1942, but preferred Russians to do all the job for them.

Quote
Originally posted by john9001
actually Russia never fought in WW2, they fought "the great patriotic war"


There was a Great Patriotic War, June 22 1941 - May 9 1945.

JFYI: In August 1945 USSR defeated Japanese continental army in Manchurian operation, 1.5 million men army beaten in 2 weeks loosing less then 9000 Soviet servicemen. It was WWII but not GPW. Compare it to "allied" achievements against Japan.

Looks like "allies" always relied on Soviet force, unable to do anything themselves.

Offline john9001

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 9453
When did the Cold War start?
« Reply #78 on: February 03, 2007, 08:18:07 PM »
JFYI: In August 1945 japan was a already defeated country, defeated by the USA, England, and allies.

Offline VOR

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2313
When did the Cold War start?
« Reply #79 on: February 03, 2007, 08:22:26 PM »

Offline Mace2004

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1528
      • TrackIR 4.0
When did the Cold War start?
« Reply #80 on: February 03, 2007, 08:31:16 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Boroda
Exactly, trying to get your piece of pie when all the job was already done by Soviets.


Yes, the people of the Soviet Union carried a huge burden in WWII but maybe they wouldn't have had to had the USSR not chosen to ally with Germany and split Poland up, does Sep1, 1939 ring a bell?  This sort of set the USSR up as the patsy when Hitler decided he'd rather conquer the USSR than be it's partner.  Also, while the USSR did suffer, consider Poland's losses during the war.  Of every single country involved in WWII, including the USSR, Poland lost the greatest percentage of it's population.  One of the reasons it's losses were so great was having the honor of being invaded by an allied Germany and USSR.  The USSR is the sole participant in WWII with the rather unlovely distinction of being on both sides during the war so my sympathy only goes so far.
Mace
Golden Gryphon Guild Mercenary Force G3-MF

                                                                                          

Offline VOR

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2313
When did the Cold War start?
« Reply #81 on: February 03, 2007, 08:45:11 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Mace2004
YThe USSR is the sole participant in WWII with the rather unlovely distinction of being on both sides during the war


Italy?

Offline Captain Virgil Hilts

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 6128
When did the Cold War start?
« Reply #82 on: February 03, 2007, 08:47:26 PM »
And France, if you count the Vichy regime.
"I haven't seen Berlin yet, from the ground or the air, and I plan on doing both, BEFORE the war is over."

SaVaGe


Offline Mace2004

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1528
      • TrackIR 4.0
When did the Cold War start?
« Reply #83 on: February 03, 2007, 08:58:39 PM »
No to both of you.  I'm pretty obviously talking about the same country with the same government and leadership.  Mussolini was dead, the Vichy were a German puppet government.  Stalin was, and remained the head of the USSR the entire time.
Mace
Golden Gryphon Guild Mercenary Force G3-MF

                                                                                          

Offline VOR

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2313
When did the Cold War start?
« Reply #84 on: February 03, 2007, 09:03:17 PM »
Pretty obviously talking about Stalin, sure.

Offline bj229r

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 6735
When did the Cold War start?
« Reply #85 on: February 03, 2007, 09:05:40 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Boroda
I told it many times before. When I hear two explainations of one historical event, one of them Western, second one - Soviet, both reasonable and without obvious logical faults, I definetly choose Soviet one. I hope you understand why :)

In case of Berlin airlift the Western POV is that the only reason for blockade was that Evil Soviet Regime (tm) wanted to starve poor Berliners just because it was naturally evil and bloodthirty, in other words - just for fun. I hope you understand that it was not so, otherwise there is no reason to discuss it.

I first learned about "Berlin airlift" from Midnight Target on this board, we have never been told about it at history classes (it doesn't mean that information was censored, you just had to show some interest and look for it). What I heard surprised me. I found an answer a later, reading a book by Soviet intelligence officer, he only mentioned that decision, and then I easily found other facts.

I strongly believe that Cold war was started by the "blue" side, this opinion was developed by reading multiple Soviet and Western books and putting 2+2 together. First, after WWII USSR, unlike Western "allies" was totally devastated and exausted, so, if Stalin didn't kick "allies" out of Europe in 1945 - then the only option for the USSR was peace. Multiple hostile actions and provocations made by "allies" led to Cold war, "iron curtain" and division of Europe into "red" and "blue" sides. BTW, USSR withdrew it's troops from countries like Austria and seriously discussed re-uniting Germany until 1953.


Heeh, you remind of the Chekov character on the Star Trek tv show--everything was thought of by Russians, or invented by them;)
Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large numbers

http://www.flamewarriors.net/forum/

Offline Debonair

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3488
When did the Cold War start?
« Reply #86 on: February 03, 2007, 11:15:37 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Captain Virgil Hilts
And France, if you count the Vichy regime.


finn-land & norway too if you count the quislings

Offline Mace2004

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1528
      • TrackIR 4.0
When did the Cold War start?
« Reply #87 on: February 03, 2007, 11:23:20 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Debonair
finn-land & norway too if you count the quislings


Quisling proxies?  lol
Mace
Golden Gryphon Guild Mercenary Force G3-MF

                                                                                          

Offline Stoney74

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1439
When did the Cold War start?
« Reply #88 on: February 04, 2007, 02:52:17 AM »
While the end of WWI and the eventual repurcussions of the Versaille Treaty obviously provoked WWII, I think 1918 and its period are too early to describe the true nature of the Cold War.

I would say the Cold War began as soon as Churchill and Stalin began their mutual mistrust, which would have been early in WWII.  The U.S. may have reinforced this situation by the nature and comparison of Lend Lease to the British, and Lend Lease to the Russians.  A further estrangement occured, as alluded to earlier, when Eisenhower agreed to invade North Africa rather than France.  Opening the Western Front early, regardless of how ill-prepared the western Allies were for the effort, would have made a strong statement to the Russians that the British and U.S. wanted to be equal partners in the conflict on the continent, instead of what the Russians perceived as England protecting "colonial" interests in N. Africa and the Med before invading France.  While the facts suggest that an Allied landing in France in late '42 or early '43 would have been a bloodbath, the significance of the gesture to the Russians, I contend, would have been a step forward in reassuring Stalin that he had allies with which he could place confidence in.  Does this mean we were wrong for delaying Overlord until mid-44?  From a military standpoint, no question it was the right thing to do.  But, from a political view, especially with respect to Russian perception, I believe it began the spiral towards the ultimate distrust that provided the foundation of the Cold War.

So often, wars are started because humans are, at their core, selfish, infantile, ignorant, and allow these personal emotions to carry over into their judgements on how to govern themselves.  Communism, just as any other governmental system, ideally works just as well as Democracy.  A benevolent dictatorship in ideal execution is probably the most effective governmental system imagined.  My personal belief, although perhaps incorrect, is that Democracy dilutes the ability of any one individual to decisively affect the life, liberty, and happiness of another.  By reducing the human variable, democracy works--not perfectly, but functional none-the-less.  Communism as perceived by Lenin, probably was similarly functional.  At the end of the day, people just want to be left alone in order to work, feed and raise their families in peace, and live.  I believe there are many systems that can accomplish this.  American "democracy" has worked for us, but surely is not a panacea for the rest of the world.  

I believe the Cold War was an equal balance of a Western perception that the Soviet block was bent on supremacy, just as the Soviets perceived an attempt by the West to dominate politically.  This mutual mistrust and fear, I propose, emerged during the conduct of WWII.

storch

  • Guest
When did the Cold War start?
« Reply #89 on: February 04, 2007, 07:36:40 AM »
the russians invented the windshield wipers for cars but it took the Americans to perfect them.  we Americans placed them on the outside of the windshield.  :D