Author Topic: Common Sense Has Left the Building... (Read 2482 times)

Rolex · « **Reply #60 on:** February 07, 2007, 09:16:26 AM »

The average price of Toyota vehicles in the US is almost $5,900 more than the average price of a GM vehicle.

The day GM builds and markets vehicles that the American public is willing to pay the same average price they pay for Toyota vehicles, GM will make a profit of $3,500 each and eliminate the overall losses. That profit would cover GM's healthcare liabilities and even pay for those bonuses.

lazs2 · « **Reply #61 on:** February 07, 2007, 09:20:31 AM »

average price means nothing rolex and you know it. they would have to be compared on a like basis. luxury, weight, HP , features warranties... a whole host of items.

lazs

Toad · « **Reply #62 on:** February 07, 2007, 09:41:44 AM »

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Originally posted by lazs2
well... what does toyota do with it's retirees?

They have very few retirees in their US organization. That's the point; they essentially don't have that legacy cost. That's not anything the unions did; it's just a fact of when the companies respectively started.

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Why aren't you all upset with toyotas evil management who is consigning their workers to hell on earth?

Toyo USA doesn't have unions for one primary reason: they offer a pay/benefit package very close to the one the UAW workers get. The details differ but the end result is that a Toyo worker and a UAW worker have a comparable standard of living. If the union weren't setting the pace though, you can bet Toyo would be offering less. They offer just enough so that there's no real need for a union. That's pretty smart management, don't you think?

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There should be some way to negotiate fairly. There are groups who do this... professional barganing units.. Arbitrators...

I was involved to some degree with negotiations. I'll just answer this by saying anyone can be bought. I've seen it happen. Negotiating a billion dollar labor agreement....... how far would a million in a Cayman or Swiss bank account go towards getting management the contract it desires? Pocket change to management; freedom to the seller/negotiator.

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Many companies use an "interest based" negotiating style now where everyone lays their cards on the table.

Yeah, I saw that one too. That one was the longest negotiation of them all.

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they would have to be compared on a like basis. luxury, weight, HP , features warranties... a whole host of items.

Just like you have to compare a multitude of factors and variables when considering what "labor" truly "costs". You hold retiree expenses against GM as high labor cost that Toyo doesn't pay. However, the only reason is that GM has been in business here much longer than Toyo USA and actually has a large number of retirees. That's not GM's fault, not any union fault...it's not anyone's "fault"; it's just a fact of life.

Oh, 401K's are fine IF your company offers one. My company did not for a very long time. Further, at my company, they wouldn't or couldn't put my retirement into a 401K in my own name. You could put part of YOUR income in with a small company match up to a certain percent. If it was possible to have had my contractual retirement funds put in a 401K in my own name, I'd rent a furball arena from HT with my spare change.

Didn't happen that way though... at least my CEO made tens of millions when I lost my retirement though. That thought comforts me when I'm low.

Gunthr · « **Reply #63 on:** February 07, 2007, 10:14:44 AM »

do you call it bad management when management enters into a contract agreement with the UAW that allows a UAW worker caught red-handed, by management, mainlining heroin in a company bathroom stall, on company time, to not only keep his job, but be paid to attend rehab? (this really happened in Detroit.)

or do you call it a union that makes preposterous demands... ? i think both sides lost touch with reality. this kind of thing kills the industry just as sure as making cars that are unappealing.

don't mean to be a stick in the mud... but there are many commercial endeavors that do not need unions because employees are treated fairly by management - and if they did have one, the employees would ultimately suffer from those rapacious style of unions run by goons who do nothing but constantly file petty grievences and create adversarial relationships uneccesarily. these would probably be smaller to mid sized companies and governments. Some of them certainly need to be unionized, but definately not all them need unions.

Toad · « **Reply #64 on:** February 07, 2007, 10:17:45 AM »

If you're disagreeing with me, I don't think you just typed anything I with which I'd disagree.

Gunthr · « **Reply #65 on:** February 07, 2007, 11:20:18 AM »

well, i have a problem with your truism "the only thing worse than a union is no union." seems to imply that management is never fair with employees... which is what many of the type unions I don't like would have us all think. the pro, pro, PRO union mentality that i've seen in Detroit. if that isn't your take - well, kindly ignore my comment Toad...

Toad · « **Reply #66 on:** February 07, 2007, 11:27:49 AM »

Am I pro union? Not really; OTOH I am certainly not anti union either.

I wish we did not need unions. Unfortunately there can be no doubt that we do need unions to counter management excess.

Also, like it or not, unions set the standards by default. As I mentioned, Toyo USA jobs wouldn't be as good as they are (however good that is) without the UAW. Toyo gives them just enough to keep them close to UAW standards.

So, as I said. The only thing worse than an union is no union. We're screwed with them but we're more screwed without them.

Every company? No. Some companies have intelligent, compassionate mangement that tries to take care of their employees. Damn few of those that I can see on the big stage though; it's mostly the smaller companies that manage that.

Nonetheless, it's indisputable that the unions set the standard and indeed, created our work week lifestyle (40 hours/weekends off), some sort of health care, etc., etc. So, again, many of the "good" non-union companies owe their workers standard of living to the unions.

Like women, you can't live with 'em and you can't live without 'em.

lasersailor184 · « **Reply #67 on:** February 07, 2007, 11:31:29 AM »

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Originally posted by AWMac
Someday lasersailor184 I pray you have to work for a living.

Mac

The funny thing is that I've held better jobs than you have.

midnight Target · « **Reply #68 on:** February 07, 2007, 12:19:22 PM »

Unions exist in places where management deserves them.

john9001 · « **Reply #69 on:** February 07, 2007, 12:32:36 PM »

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Originally posted by Gunthr
well, i have a problem with your truism "the only thing worse than a union is no union." seems to imply that management is never fair with employees...

you need a history lesson, look the homestead steel strike. Carnegie, Frick.

lazs2 · « **Reply #70 on:** February 07, 2007, 02:32:36 PM »

toad... I am not sure what you are saying by "anyone can be bought" I have been involved in more than a couple of negotiations myself and it sure looked like the union was being bought or whatever to me. Unions have a history of being bought and not just by management.

I do agree with MT that unions exist where management deserves em... the only trouble is... like a contract killer.. they are hard to get rid of once they aren't needed or deserved... they are a very final and harsh solution to a problem... sorta like nukes.. no one wins.

401k? you don't need the employer for em. anyone can open up some form of savings and be rich when the retire.

and costs... it still boils down to the fact that GM spends almost twice as much per hour for labor per hour than toyota... If you aren't getting twice as much out of em you are gonna have to cut costs somewhere else. Quality is no 1... but in this case... it is number one thing to go down the crapper.

lazs

Xargos · « **Reply #71 on:** February 07, 2007, 03:52:54 PM »

My biggest problem with unions is that NO ONE should have to belong to one in order to be employed. In some States you have to belong to one in order to be a State employee, while in others you'd get fired for just talking about it. I think that's wrong on both ends.

P.S. Does anyone have info on how much the heads of the major unions make in this country a year?

Gunthr · « **Reply #72 on:** February 07, 2007, 04:06:19 PM »

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you need a history lesson, look the homestead steel strike. Carnegie, Frick. - John

i read the capsulized story of the strike. what is the take-home lesson from this?

john9001 · « **Reply #73 on:** February 07, 2007, 04:39:29 PM »

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Originally posted by Gunthr
i read the capsulized story of the strike. what is the take-home lesson from this?

the "take home lesson" is that the great Carnegie would rather kill his workers than share his profits with them , and he did have profits, lots of profits.

Xargos · « **Reply #74 on:** February 07, 2007, 04:44:08 PM »

Government troops helped him do it. If I remember correctly the US troops set up machine guns around the camp and mowed the workers down.

And who said Big Companies don't rule this country?