Author Topic: HT, a Question about the Spit FM:  (Read 2541 times)

Offline BaldEagl

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HT, a Question about the Spit FM:
« Reply #60 on: February 10, 2007, 01:51:58 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by dtango
Everything I've mentioned has to do with planes with all their parts :).  
How the forces are dynamically acting on a busted up plane is a dynamics problem that aren't typically describable by flight characteristics.  

If you don't buy the AH general dynamics then maybe you should draw some free body diagrams to show how the forces should be acting on parts of an airplane falling down.

Tango, XO
412th FS Braunco Mustangs


I'm just saying that the phenomenon described in this thread happened to me in a Spit V with a wing blown off.  That leads me to believe that it's a bug rather than accurate modeling.  

I have no issues with the AH flight modeling overall which, while I've never flown a real plane much less a WWII fighter, seem incredibly realistic.  

Believe me, I'm not dissing you or trying to start an argument, I just don't believe this is a common real-life phenomenon.
I edit a lot of my posts.  Get used to it.

Offline dtango

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HT, a Question about the Spit FM:
« Reply #61 on: February 10, 2007, 02:26:39 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by BaldEagl
I'm just saying that the phenomenon described in this thread happened to me in a Spit V with a wing blown off.  That leads me to believe that it's a bug rather than accurate modeling.  

I have no issues with the AH flight modeling overall which, while I've never flown a real plane much less a WWII fighter, seem incredibly realistic.  

Believe me, I'm not dissing you or trying to start an argument, I just don't believe this is a common real-life phenomenon.


I never took your post as a diss :).  The inverted "float" down isn't just specific to the Spit minus a wing.  That's happened to me in the Mustang as well when I've gotten an entire wing shot off.

If you want something in the real world that might be comparable to this state is that of a falling leaf:

http://www.sas.org/E-Bulletin/2002-11-08/features/body.html

I am saying if folks have a beef about something in the AH physics engine then bring some physics to the table and explain why something isn't realistic.

Tango,XO
412th FS Braunco Mustangs
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"At times it seems like people think they can chuck bunch of anecdotes into some converter which comes up with the flight model." (Wmaker)

Offline Charge

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HT, a Question about the Spit FM:
« Reply #62 on: February 11, 2007, 12:53:43 PM »
"the plane sits still, INVERTED, and floats to the ground. there is no spin, it just sits upside down. no plane falls like a brick upside down, else it would of course be a plane shaped brick, not a combat aircraft..."

I find it admirable that a flight model, as it is now, is able to generate a rather realistic feeling of flying a WW2 era warbird. What I find interesting is that HTC is able to model some of the departure characteristics that various original aircraft had. They probably need to made artificially in the code because otherwise the code should be quite advanced one if it would be able to generate those on aerodynamic data alone and in realtime.

An inverted stall, IMO, is just something the code cannot currently handle and it should be corrected, again, artificially as otherwise it could mean extensive rewrite of FM code.

I have never been in an inverted flat stall without rotation, nor ever seen anybody in one, so I guess it must be rather rare and you need to do everything just right (:-P) to get into one.

That issue is probably on the work list of future FM rework if there is one pending.

-C+
"When you wish upon a falling star, your dreams can come true. Unless it's really a giant meteor hurtling to the earth which will destroy all life. Then you're pretty much screwed no matter what you wish for. Unless of course, it's death by meteorite."

Offline dtango

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HT, a Question about the Spit FM:
« Reply #63 on: February 11, 2007, 08:47:03 PM »
DEEP STALLS:

Post-stall aerodynamics can be a tricky thing.  "At angles of attack beyond stall the airflow about an airplane is extremely complex and the aerodynamic forces and moments become highly nonlinear".  Most of us are familiar with the most common post-stall flight mode which is a spin.  

There's a less common mode however called the deep stall which also exists, usually occurring at angles of attack well above the critical angle of attack and therefore "deeper" into aerodynamic stall.

The following is a diagram representing these post-stall modes of flight:



The transition area represents the envelope where an aircraft would typically enter into a spin, while beyond that is the region where deep stall mode of the envelope is encountered.  The transition area is characterized by large asymetries in forces in the roll and yaw axis typically initiated by asymetric wing stall.  To reach a deep stall, for the test-craft that the data above came from it was necessary to rapidly enter the deep stall region to avoid lingering in the transition area otherwise the aircraft would have entered a spin instead of a deep stall (time required to achieve deep stall was 2 seconds).

CHARACTERISTICS OF A DEEP STALL:
Unlike a spin, an aircraft in a deep stall is extremely stable overpowering the ability of flight controls to reduce angle of attack.  The result is often a near vertical descent with nose attitude fairly level with no (or little) spin which is very difficult or impossible to recover from using conventional controls.  The following figures illustrate what the result of a deep stall looks like:





Infact deep stalls have been tested for the Boeing/UCLA Solar Powered Formation-Flight proto-type as a way to bring the un-manned aircraft down and is described as when "the wing essentially stops flying, and the aircraft descends in an almost parachute-like fashion".  (Sound familiar?)  There are recorded cases where pilots actually survived unrecoverable deep stalls - one case in point was an amateur built Velocity aircraft where the pilot ended up in a deep stall and tried various ways of attempting to produce a nose pitch down (even with the pilot climbing out of the cockpit and leaning as far forward as possible to try and get the nose down!!!).  The pilot considered bailing but elected to stay with the aircraft because of the slow, stable descent and after a hard vertical landing stepped out of the plane uninjured!

Deep stalls have been around for along time and controlled deep stalls have actually been around aviation history since the beginning.  The 1902 Wright glider actually had a "parachute" mode that was used as an emergency landing technique.  More recently the Kasperwing Ultralight has demonstrated a "vortex mush" flight mode.  Already mentioned in the thread are other examples such as the F-16 and T-tailed aircraft that experience deep-stall as well.  The British BAC-111 airliner, one of the first t-tail commercial planes suffered a major setback in 1963 when the plane and test crew were lost as they discovered the deep-stall mode of departure for the aircraft.  Since then it's been a well documented issue for t-tailed aircraft to design for.
Tango / Tango412 412th FS Braunco Mustangs
"At times it seems like people think they can chuck bunch of anecdotes into some converter which comes up with the flight model." (Wmaker)

Offline dtango

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HT, a Question about the Spit FM:
« Reply #64 on: February 11, 2007, 08:47:46 PM »
PHYSICS OF A DEEP STALL:
So what causes an aircraft to end up in a un-recoverable deep stall?  It obviously occurs at high angles of attack but is compounded when the horizontal stabilizer (and the elevators) of the tail are no longer effective in changing the angle of attack.  Aircraft are designed to have to certain longitudinal (pitch) stability.  Lift produced by the wing actually causes a moment force on the aircraft that pitches it up or down due to the center of lift being some distance from the aircraft center of gravity.  To oppose this moment force the lift from the horizontal stabilizer of the tail counteracts this force in order to achieve static and dynamic stability.  Essentially the lift of the tail creates an opposing pitching moment force to that created by the wing.  In aerodynamics the pitching moment co-efficient (usually referred to as Cm) represents this overall pitching moment of a plane.  

The following is a diagram that represents the lift, drag, and pitching coefficients of a particular airplane which represents the complex interplay of how the wing and tail and resulting lift and drag impact the overall pitching moment of an airplane at different angles of attack.  This figure represents an airplane with rectangular wings and conventional aft tail.



The first interesting range to point out is where lift (Cl) peaks and then drops (stall) and the resulting effect on the pitching moment (Cm).  There's a sharp drop in Cm to be more negative which represents an overall force for the nose to go down.  The more negative the Cm, the more the pitching moment to force the nose down.  The reason this occurs is because the wing itself stalled out produces less left therefore less pitching moment force while the tail continues to produce lift and causes the nose to pitch down more because the wing stalls before the horizontal stabilizer of the tail does (downwash from the main wing induces a lower angle of attack on the tail h-stab therefore postponing the stall of the stabilizer).  It's this change in pitching moment as a reaction to stabilize the plane that helps a plane recover from a stall to reduce angle of attack.

The 2nd area to notice is when the tail also stalls at some higher aoa which is represented by when Cm rises meaning less moment force by the tail to pitch the nose down because it's producing less lift due to stall.  However in the case above Cm is still negative (nose still wants to pitch down).  Eventually drag creates more stability causing the pitching moment to be more negative again.  For this aircraft there isn't a deep-stall point where pitching moment is at equilibrium.  This means that an aircraft should be able to recover from a deep-stall because a pitching moment exists to be able to reduce the angle of attack and get out of stall.

The following graph however represents a plane that has different post-stall characteristics.



The graph looks similar except now notice that there are angles of attack where the pitching moment is either at 0 (equilibrium) or even positive.  When the plane has not stalled out this isn't an issue, however where this occurs at higher angles of attack into a stall this becomes very important.  It is at these points that the pitching moment is essentially zero which means there's no force available to change the angle of attack of the airplane.  From the unstable equlibrium point (25 deg aoa in the aircraft above) with the control held in the same position that would result in recovery in a shallow stall, the plane would quickly rotate to this deep stall trim point.  In other words, the deep stall trim point is where the aircraft can no longer produce a pitching moment to change the angle of attack of the airplane and the plane remains at this angle of attack.  At this point it becomes difficult if not impossible to recover the aircraft with conventional controls and the airplane literally pancakes into the ground.

For the well documented deep stall t-tail cases, the reason this occurs (where Cm=0 at high aoa) is because the turbulent flow behind the stalled wing actually severely interferes with the airflow for the tail and this wake severely reduces the ability of the tail to stabilize the plane by reducing it's ability to create a corrective pitching moment through tail-lift.

Here's a similar pitching moment vs. aoa chart for the F-16 which shows the regions highlighted where pitching moment is at equilibrium which leads to a deep stall where aoa is in the 50-60 degree range either direction.  



It should be noted that the deep stall can occur irrespective of the airplane attitude whether it's nose up in the vertical, wings level or wings inverted.  

AH DEEP STALL ENTRIES?:
Joe Bill Dryden, a test pilot for the F-16 has write-ups regarding F-16 departure into deep stall including inverted deep stalls.  The situations leading to deep stall usually occur when the airspeed of the aircraft was at zero in ther vertical or at slow speed with a hard maneuver.  In either case the computerized flight control system isn't able to correct quickly enough for the rapidly changing aoa.

I theorize this is basically what is happening in the AH flight model.  As Widewing's film of the Mosquito demonstrates as the mossie nears 0 airspeed with nose pointed up the nose begins to drop.  This resultant drop whether pitched back or pitched forward represents rapidly changing angle of attack because the free-stream air is striking the leading edge of the wing at angles of attack that increase very rapidly due to the motion of the rotation with the nose coming down.  



Very quickly we find that both the wing (and tail) are at high angles of attack passing through the transition zone where a spin occurs and into aoa well in excess of the critical aoa.  In this attitude the tail (and elevator) is essentially unable to produce enough lift to create a negative pitching moment to offset whatever lift is produced by the wing inorder to pitch the nose down.  Essentially the aircraft is now in state that pitch equilibrium has been reached (like our graph above where Cm=0 at high aoa) and we pancake into the ground either upright or inverted.

I have not seen any film or have I tried reproducing the inverted deep stall of the Spitfire I.  I'm guessing essentially something similar is happening where the aircraft is at or near zero airspeed and begins to fall which results again in a very high aoa attitude very quickly passing through the spin zone and into a deep stall.

Whether deep stall trim points exist for each of the AH airplanes in real life is another question.  Post-stall dynamics as mentioned are very tricky to estimate and model.  The question is does enough pitching moment exists at very high angles of attack post-stall to pitch the nose in order to reduce aoa depending on the configuration and design of the aircraft.  But from what I can tell it appears the unrecoverable float downs we are seeing in AH is essentially a deep stall.

Sources:
(1) Mechanics of Flight, Warren Phillips. 2004.
(2) NASA TN86401: Flight Characteristics of a Manned, Lowspeed, Controlled Deep Stall Vehicle, Alex G. Sim. Aug 1984.
(3) Explaning Aerodynamic Stall, Mark McCabe, Aviation Litigation Monthly, Fall 2002.
(4) Formation Flight Model Tested, NASA Dryden Flight Research Center, Aug 1997.
(5) No Excuses, Joe Bill Dryden.  Code One Magazine, July 1991.
(6) Concept to Reality: Contributions of NASA Langley Research Center to US Civil Aircraft of the 1990s, Joseph R. Chambers, Oct 2003.

Tango, XO
412th FS Braunco Mustangs
« Last Edit: February 11, 2007, 10:15:42 PM by dtango »
Tango / Tango412 412th FS Braunco Mustangs
"At times it seems like people think they can chuck bunch of anecdotes into some converter which comes up with the flight model." (Wmaker)

Offline stephen

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HT, a Question about the Spit FM:
« Reply #65 on: February 11, 2007, 10:54:07 PM »
try looping a fully fuled 51 and get below 100 ias on top, youll know you made a mistake, 38 has a nasty habit of barrrel rolling to death when heavy, corsairs snap stall and ground loop, mossies spin hard because of torque with flaps out, ki84's, and 190's snap out of turns when pulled to hard, 109's lawn dart, and ground loop under breaking, and finaly spits fall out of the sky inverted when roll and back pressure on the stick are to much.....military a/c in worldwar 2 pushed the ragged edge of tech...so the planes may be touchy, this is why the game doesnt suck {accept for main arena being nueterd}:aok
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Offline Widewing

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HT, a Question about the Spit FM:
« Reply #66 on: February 12, 2007, 12:04:15 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by dtango
PHYSICS OF A DEEP STALL:
I have not seen any film or have I tried reproducing the inverted deep stall of the Spitfire I.  I'm guessing essentially something similar is happening where the aircraft is at or near zero airspeed and begins to fall which results again in a very high aoa attitude very quickly passing through the spin zone and into a deep stall.

Tango, XO
412th FS Braunco Mustangs


Here's a film of a SpitV worked into an inverted stall.

It seems to me that P factor is not modeled. Prop wash impingment on the rudder ought to induce some rotation. I can see how a glider might drop vertically, but torque and P factor should have some effect, I would think.

Spit Mk.V inverted stall

My regards,

Widewing
« Last Edit: February 12, 2007, 12:10:58 AM by Widewing »
My regards,

Widewing

YGBSM. Retired Member of Aces High Trainer Corps, Past President of the DFC, retired from flying as Tredlite.

Offline dtango

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HT, a Question about the Spit FM:
« Reply #67 on: February 12, 2007, 08:28:10 AM »
Widewing- thanks for the film.  I had a chance to briefly look at it before I went into work.  Will study it a bit further this evening.  Initially it appears very similar to the graphic I had above except the plane is inverted so I think it's the same entry as I described.

Regarding corkscrewing propwash, it's conceivable that because the plane is falling the impact of propwash on yaw is limited because the high angle of the freestream direction of airflow relative to propwash due to a vertical drop is dissipating the effect of propwash.

EDIT: 2ndly regarding p-factor, I'm not sure how this might effect yaw in a vertical inverted drop since p-factor is a result of difference in speeds of the upgoing and downgoing blades when tilted at some angle with respect to oncoming airflow.

Thirdly this may also be accounting for offsetting any torque effects in the roll axis because the plane is falling flat and again the relative angle of freestream airflow is impinging on the wings and h-stab creating moment forces that torque doesn't overcome.

Tango, XO
412th FS Braunco Mustangs
« Last Edit: February 12, 2007, 08:51:08 AM by dtango »
Tango / Tango412 412th FS Braunco Mustangs
"At times it seems like people think they can chuck bunch of anecdotes into some converter which comes up with the flight model." (Wmaker)