Author Topic: Obama and the patriot act..  (Read 1346 times)

Offline Shamus

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Obama and the patriot act..
« Reply #15 on: February 11, 2007, 11:51:02 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Dago
Better Obama than Hillary.  That ***** is just plain evil.  She will get votes from the just plain stupid.  She will use her power in a nasty negative way, just as she behaved out of the public eye during the embarrassing Clinton years.


Not to worry, just as our current President is not able to abuse his power due to checks and balances, Hillary will not be able to either.

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Offline VooWho

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Obama and the patriot act..
« Reply #16 on: February 11, 2007, 01:08:36 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by dmf
If Obama gets to be president he'll screw up everything the president's before him did, just like every US President has done with the exception of George Washington.

The only reason George Washington didn't screw up what teh president before him did is that there was no president before him, otherwise he'd have screwed it up.

Therefore I fear nothing Obama could do as president, the Patriot act doesn't even apply to most of us anyway, so stop worrying about it.


Will if you think about it this way, America's first Amendment is the freedom of speech and press. So everyone gets to talk about on how they feel about the government and they can manipulate others into believing them like the press, or a father. Say theres a poll on how do you rate each president of the U.S. A)Great B)Okay C)Could have had better) or D)Worst. This poll would practice the first amendment.

Now lets take the USSR. There the people had few rights. They had no freedom of speech or press. There the people were told that the leader or the government was great but the people knew it wasn't. They didn't have the right to say, We don't like you Stalin. When they were around government officals or some where public they had to say Oh we love you Stalin. Say they took the same poll in the U.S but used Russian leaders. All of the answers on that poll for each Russian leader would be A.

Here in the U.S people have different opinions on each president. Some think Bush is the devil, other thinks he okay. Some think Hillary is great others think she would suck. Some think Obama would rock others think he would suck. DMF you have the right to think that every president has messed up due to the president before them. I don't. I think all presidents make there own mistakes not from the president before them.
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Offline Mace2004

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Obama and the patriot act..
« Reply #17 on: February 11, 2007, 01:28:07 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by DREDIOCK
As it stands now. We are borderline on the brink of McCarthyism


You do of course realize that McCarthy was actually right about agents of the USSR operating within the US?
Mace
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Offline Dago

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Obama and the patriot act..
« Reply #18 on: February 11, 2007, 01:50:40 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Mace2004
You do of course realize that McCarthy was actually right about agents of the USSR operating within the US?


Reality doesn't intrude in some minds.
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Offline bsdaddict

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Obama and the patriot act..
« Reply #19 on: February 11, 2007, 03:31:31 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Mace2004
You do of course realize that McCarthy was actually right about agents of the USSR operating within the US?

you do, of course, realize that wasn't his point.  DRED didn't say that there weren't any commie agents in the US during that time period.  He mentioned that we were "on the brink of McCarthyism", implying that would be a Bad Thing(tm).

In case you missed that day in class:  "Since the time of McCarthy, the word "McCarthyism" has entered American speech as a general term for a variety of distasteful practices: aggressively questioning a person's patriotism, making poorly supported accusations, using accusations of disloyalty to pressure a person to adhere to conformist politics or to discredit an opponent, subverting civil rights in the name of national security and the use of demagoguery are all often referred to as McCarthyism."

that sound good to you, Mace?
« Last Edit: February 11, 2007, 03:43:45 PM by bsdaddict »

Offline dmf

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Obama and the patriot act..
« Reply #20 on: February 11, 2007, 05:04:21 PM »
I can say this god about Hillary that will make me vote for her.



















.

Offline Mace2004

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Obama and the patriot act..
« Reply #21 on: February 11, 2007, 05:10:15 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by bsdaddict
you do, of course, realize that wasn't his point.  DRED didn't say that there weren't any commie agents in the US during that time period.  He mentioned that we were "on the brink of McCarthyism", implying that would be a Bad Thing(tm).

In case you missed that day in class:  "Since the time of McCarthy, the word "McCarthyism" has entered American speech as a general term for a variety of distasteful practices: aggressively questioning a person's patriotism, making poorly supported accusations, using accusations of disloyalty to pressure a person to adhere to conformist politics or to discredit an opponent, subverting civil rights in the name of national security and the use of demagoguery are all often referred to as McCarthyism."

that sound good to you, Mace?


Yeah, sort of like Gate is appended to anything that liberals or the press want to assign pre-judged negative connotations to in an effort to win in the court of public opinion before any actual facts come out.  Instead of actually looking at the facts just run around screaming McCarthyism or XXXXgate, or Nazi and don't worry about having to have an actual intelligent discussion.  There's lots of this sort of "shorthand" we could use.  Why don't we use "Leahyism" to denote the leaking of classified documents by members of Congress or "Clintonism" to denote taking advantage of young interns or "Jessie Jacksonism" to denote race baiting and extortion?  Sounds like they might want to add some more class days.
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Offline Ack-Ack

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Obama and the patriot act..
« Reply #22 on: February 11, 2007, 05:12:44 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Mace2004
You do of course realize that McCarthy was actually right about agents of the USSR operating within the US?



Did you know that not one of those that he accused or had in front of his panel were agents of the Soviets?  Did you also know that he represented the Nazi SS men that were responsible for the massacre at Malmedy that led to the principle SS men responsible for the massacre having their death sentances over turned and they only had to serve short prison sentances?  Yeah, what a great American McCarthy was.


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Offline bsdaddict

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Obama and the patriot act..
« Reply #23 on: February 11, 2007, 05:15:14 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Mace2004
Yeah, sort of like Gate is appended to anything that liberals or the press want to assign pre-judged negative connotations to in an effort to win in the court of public opinion before any actual facts come out.  Instead of actually looking at the facts just run around screaming McCarthyism or XXXXgate, or Nazi and don't worry about having to have an actual intelligent discussion.  There's lots of this sort of "shorthand" we could use.  Why don't we use "Leahyism" to denote the leaking of classified documents by members of Congress or "Clintonism" to denote taking advantage of young interns or "Jessie Jacksonism" to denote race baiting and extortion?  Sounds like they might want to add some more class days.

still havin' trouble getting the point, eh?

Offline john9001

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Obama and the patriot act..
« Reply #24 on: February 11, 2007, 05:23:49 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Mace2004
Yeah, sort of like Gate is appended to anything that liberals or the press want to assign pre-judged negative connotations to in an effort to win in the court of public opinion before any actual facts come out.  Instead of actually looking at the facts just run around screaming McCarthyism or XXXXgate, or Nazi and don't worry about having to have an actual intelligent discussion.  There's lots of this sort of "shorthand" we could use.  Why don't we use "Leahyism" to denote the leaking of classified documents by members of Congress or "Clintonism" to denote taking advantage of young interns or "Jessie Jacksonism" to denote race baiting and extortion?  Sounds like they might want to add some more class days.


you forgot NEO.

Offline DREDIOCK

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Obama and the patriot act..
« Reply #25 on: February 11, 2007, 05:57:32 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Shamus
Not to worry, just as our current President is not able to abuse his power due to checks and balances, Hillary will not be able to either.

shamus


Cept for that executive order thingie
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Offline DREDIOCK

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Obama and the patriot act..
« Reply #26 on: February 11, 2007, 06:08:54 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Mace2004
You do of course realize that McCarthy was actually right about agents of the USSR operating within the US?


yea and we had agents operating in the USSR as well. So what?
This should come as a surprise to anyone?

But it seems alot of innocent people were also accused in the process

"Joseph Raymond McCarthy (November 14, 1908 – May 2, 1957) was a Republican U.S. Senator from the state of Wisconsin Between 1950 and 1954, McCarthy became noted for unsubstantiated claims that there were Communist and Soviet spies and sympathizers inside the federal government.
Beginning in the late 1940s, as the Cold War escalated between the United States, the Soviet Union and the People's Republic of China, the United States went through a period of intense anti-communist tensions and suspicion. Many thousands of individuals were suspected of being Soviet spies, Communists, or communist sympathizers . Although the American Communist Party was never illegal under Federal law, membership in the party or support of its goals were regarded by many as tantamount to treason. Beginning in 1950, McCarthy became the most visible public face of this era of anti-communism. The term McCarthyism was coined that same year to describe and condemn the senator's methods, which were widely seen as demagogic and based on reckless, unsubstantiated accusations. Later the term was applied more generally to the anti-communism of the late 1940s through the late 1950s; today, it is often used even more broadly, to describe public attacks made on persons' character and/or patriotism that involve the sort of tactics associated with McCarthy.[1]

From 1950 onward, McCarthy continued to press his accusations that the government was failing to deal with Communism within its ranks. These accusations received wide publicity, increased his approval rating and gained him a powerful national following.

McCarthy's methods also brought on the disapproval and opposition of many. Barely a month after McCarthy's Wheeling speech, the term "McCarthyism" was coined by Washington Post cartoonist Herbert Block. Block and others used the word as a synonym for demagoguery, baseless defamation and mudslinging. Later, it would be embraced by McCarthy and some of his supporters. "McCarthyism is Americanism with its sleeves rolled," McCarthy said in a 1952 speech, and later that year he published a book entitled McCarthyism: The Fight for America.

McCarthy has been accused of attempting to discredit his critics and political opponents by accusing them of being Communists or communist sympathizers. . In the 1950 Maryland Senate election, McCarthy campaigned for John M. Butler in his race against four-term incumbent Millard Tydings, with whom McCarthy had been in conflict during the Tydings Committee hearings. In speeches supporting Butler, McCarthy accused Tydings of "protecting Communists" and "shielding traitors." McCarthy's staff was heavily involved in the campaign, and collaborated in the production of a campaign tabloid that contained a composite photograph doctored to make it appear that Tydings was in intimate conversation with Communist leader Earl Browder. A Senate subcommittee later investigated this election and referred to it as "a despicable, back-street type of campaign," as well as recommending that the use of defamatory literature in a campaign be made grounds for expulsion from the Senate.

In addition to the Tydings-Butler race, McCarthy campaigned for several other Republicans in the 1950 elections, including that of Everett Dirksen against Democratic incumbent and Senate Majority Leader Scott W. Lucas. Dirksen, and indeed all the candidates McCarthy supported won their elections, and those he opposed lost. The elections, including many that McCarthy wasn't involved in, were an overall Republican sweep, but still McCarthy was credited as a key Republican campaigner. He was now regarded as one of the most powerful men in the Senate and was treated with new-found deference by his colleagues.[17]

McCarthy was physically violent toward his critics on at least one occasion. In 1950 he assaulted journalist Drew Pearson in the cloakroom of a Washington club, reportedly kneeing him in the groin. McCarthy, who admitted the assault, claimed he merely "slapped" Pearson.

"
« Last Edit: February 11, 2007, 06:20:35 PM by DREDIOCK »
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Offline DREDIOCK

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Obama and the patriot act..
« Reply #27 on: February 11, 2007, 06:14:00 PM »
There was considerable enmity between McCarthy and President Truman throughout the time they were both in office. McCarthy sought to characterize President Truman and the Democratic party as soft on or even in league with the Communists, referring to "twenty years of treason" on the part of the Democrats. Truman, in turn, once referred to McCarthy as "the best asset the Kremlin has," and said his attempts to "sabotage the foreign policy of the United States" in a cold war was comparable to shooting American soldiers in the back in a hot war.[20]

It was the Truman Administration's State Department that McCarthy accused of harboring 205 (or 57 or 81) "known Communists," and Truman's Secretary of Defense George Marshall who was the target of some of McCarthy's most colorful and memorable rhetoric. Marshall was also Truman's former Secretary of State and had been Army Chief of Staff during World War II. Marshall was a highly respected statesman and general, best remembered today as the architect of the Marshall Plan for post-war reconstruction of Europe, for which he was awarded the Nobel Peace Prize in 1953. McCarthy authored a book titled America's retreat from victory; the story of George Catlett Marshall, accused Marshall of treason, of "aid(ing) the Communist drive for world domination,"  said "if Marshall was merely stupid, the laws of probability would dictate that part of his decisions would serve America's interests," and most famously, accused him of being part of "a conspiracy so immense and an infamy so black as to dwarf any previous venture in the history of man."[21]

After Truman dismissed General Douglas MacArthur during the Korean War, McCarthy, charged that Truman and his advisors must have planned the dismissal during late-night sessions when "they've had time to get the President cheerful" on Bourbon and Benedictine, and said "The son of a ***** should be impeached

With the beginning of his second term as Senator in 1953, McCarthy was made chairman of the Senate Committee on Government Operations. According to some reports, Republican leaders were growing wary of McCarthy's methods and gave him this relatively mundane panel rather than the Internal Security Subcommittee--the committee normally involved with investigating Communists--thus putting McCarthy "where he can't do any harm," in the words of Senate Majority Leader Robert Taft. However, the Committee on Government Operations included the Senate Permanent Subcommittee on Investigations, and the mandate of this subcommittee was sufficiently flexible to allow McCarthy to use it for his own investigations of Communists in the government. McCarthy appointed Roy Cohn as chief counsel and Robert Kennedy as an assistant counsel to the subcommittee.

This subcommittee would be the scene of some of McCarthy's most publicized exploits. When the records of the closed executive sessions of the subcommittee under McCarthy's chairmanship were made public in 2003-2004,[31] Senators Susan Collins and Carl Levin wrote the following in their preface to the documents:

“Senator McCarthy’s zeal to uncover subversion and espionage led to disturbing excesses. His browbeating tactics destroyed careers of people who were not involved in the infiltration of our government. His freewheeling style caused both the Senate and the Subcommittee to revise the rules governing future investigations, and prompted the courts to act to protect the Constitutional rights of witnesses at Congressional hearings.  
These hearings are a part of our national past that we can neither afford to forget nor permit to reoccur.[32]

The subcommittee first investigated allegations of Communist influence in the Voice of America (VOA), at that time administered by the State Department's United States Information Agency. Many VOA personnel were questioned in front of television cameras and a packed press gallery, with McCarthy lacing his questions with hostile innuendo and false accusations. A few VOA employees alleged Communist influence on the content of broadcasts, but none of the charges were substantiated

The subcommittee then turned to the overseas library program of the International Information Agency. Cohn toured Europe examining the card catalogs of the State Department libraries looking for works by authors he deemed inappropriate. McCarthy then recited the list of supposedly pro-communist authors before his subcommittee and the press. The State Department bowed to McCarthy and ordered its overseas librarians to remove from their shelves "material by any controversial persons, Communists, fellow travelers, etc." Some libraries actually burned the newly-forbidden books. Shortly after this, in one of his carefully oblique public criticisms of McCarthy, President Eisenhower urged Americans: "Don't join the book burners. […] Don't be afraid to go in your library and read every book."


I could go on

   
« Last Edit: February 11, 2007, 06:27:39 PM by DREDIOCK »
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Offline DREDIOCK

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Obama and the patriot act..
« Reply #28 on: February 11, 2007, 06:32:09 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by bsdaddict
you do, of course, realize that wasn't his point.  DRED didn't say that there weren't any commie agents in the US during that time period.  He mentioned that we were "on the brink of McCarthyism", implying that would be a Bad Thing(tm).

In case you missed that day in class:  "Since the time of McCarthy, the word "McCarthyism" has entered American speech as a general term for a variety of distasteful practices: aggressively questioning a person's patriotism, making poorly supported accusations, using accusations of disloyalty to pressure a person to adhere to conformist politics or to discredit an opponent, subverting civil rights in the name of national security and the use of demagoguery are all often referred to as McCarthyism."

that sound good to you, Mace?


thank you.

Perhaps I should hav used the term "Salem with hunt" instead ;)
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Offline john9001

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Obama and the patriot act..
« Reply #29 on: February 11, 2007, 06:39:27 PM »
relax, there are no communists in america, there never have been , now go back to sleep comrade and everything will be ok.