Author Topic: French Fighters (Read 10098 times)

wstpt10 · « **Reply #120 on:** March 12, 2007, 08:53:04 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by Charge
"Anyone who thinks the D.520 can't stand up to the Bf.109E4 is free to use my account in wwiiol to test such theories."

I doubt that Dewo in AH would be like the one in WW2OL. The test actually says that the Dewo could match the turn of 109 with a nasty departure if pulled any tighter. In WW2OL the Dewo beats the 109E4 easily in turning contest. And the roll rate description is very vague. It was probably better that that of 109E but how much actually. The Dewo's wing does not seem to have such features that would make it phenomenal but I'm ready to believe it was "good" in rolling.

For my part I support having any early French (or French-used) fighter in AH.

Otherwise we would need to go to Korea-era to get better and faster planes...

This is a WW2 era simulation and I think those French planes fit the description very well.

-C+

You want a description of how it rolls?

Do a roll in a 190.

MiloMorai · « **Reply #121 on:** March 12, 2007, 08:57:39 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by Charge
[B The Dewo's wing does not seem to have such features that would make it phenomenal but I'm ready to believe it was "good" in rolling. [/B]

What would those features be?

Charge · « **Reply #122 on:** March 12, 2007, 09:43:10 AM »

"You want a description of how it rolls?"

No thx. I have flown it in WW2OL. I've been there it since 2002.

" What would those features be?"

More optimal aspect ratio so the wing should be a bit shorter, the aileron should extend to the tip and be preferably of Frise type, the wingtip should be more rectangular instead of rounded and I think it would not hurt if there were some wash-out to keep the ailerons in more optimal angle during flight. But most of all the wing and aileron need to be stiff which is hard to accomplish if the wing is long and thin without advanced structures or weight gain.

This does not mean that all these features should be present but some of them are more strong than others to effect the roll qualities. E.g. the Corsair was made in tests into a better roller with different aileron designs and because it already had a strong wing. The clipped wing Spit was not better because of shortened wing span itself but because the aileron placement became more optimal. Not much could be done to wing flexing which still ruined the roll rate in high speeds.

More info is available in NACA 868 document.

-C+

wstpt10 · « **Reply #123 on:** March 12, 2007, 10:23:26 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by Charge
"You want a description of how it rolls?"

No thx. I have flown it in WW2OL. I've been there it since 2002.

As?

ward88 · « **Reply #124 on:** March 12, 2007, 12:36:25 PM »

It would be great to see the French represented in this game, the dewo stands out as the best candidate imo. Very nice plane indeed and certainly capable of looking after itself.

That aside, performance doesn't necessarily have to be the sole consideration. I'm sure there are many enthusiasts who just like the variety of different aircraft and would love the chance to fly lesser known birds.

Representing or 'honouring' France for the early part of the war would be a good thing and would only add to the nice variety that is already on offer....and I don't mean that to come across as charitable or condescending, it would be very well deserved and the H75 and D520 can certainly fill a role in the early war period.

Knegel · « **Reply #125 on:** March 12, 2007, 01:23:37 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by quintv
In real life planes with pure speed disadvantages still faired well due to the type of combat that took place, it wasn't a gaming arena with people zooming around trying to get a high score, the objective was to get in and fight the enemy. It has a wicked roll rate as compared to the Emils (read; its maneuverable as hell), packed a very effective centreline cannon, and its zomg dweeb stall turn wasn't clearly worse.

We have actual combat records of how the plane faired, and yet you tell us what would have happened in RL.

Hi,

afaik exact what i wrote did happen. On even therms the D520 was outclassed by the 109´s, what dont exclude that it could shoot down a 109.
In real life there was only a few exceptions where the more slow planes could fair well for longer time, but then the pilot skill or a constant tactical advantage made the different. In WWII only know two of such examples, the combat over finnland, where the tactical skill of the finnish pilots made the different and the Hurris while BoB, which had the radar to bring them to the best tactical position.

According to what i did read, while tests the D520 could just turn with the 109E(the crashed one with damaged engine??), but with a bad stall character, the 109E could outclimb it and the 109E was faster and had a higher service ceiling. Also the firepower of the E4 was more big.
Where please is the advantage of the D520??
At what speeds was the roll better? I guess at highspeed, otherwise the 109E was rather good in rolling.

I absolutly believe the pilots did like this plane, which was, next to the Hawk75, the only real modern fighter in france, but also the german pilots, same like the hurri pilots and spit pilots did like their planes.

If it comes to flight datas, which shal get "copied" into the gameengine, the numbers and the testresults are most important and no matter how happy the pilots was to have a at least somewhat comparable performing plane, it is not the same class, like the E4. If someone would model it like that, he simply made a mistake.
No engeener can overcome the physical law, the D520 was more heavy, had less power and had a bit smaler wings, but a higher wingspan.
it had NO significant advantage that i would know of(do it had fuel injection??)
Nevertheless its not a bad performing plane and for sure help to bring some more EW fun to AH and iam looking forward to use it.

Greetings,

Knegel

Ack-Ack · « **Reply #126 on:** March 12, 2007, 01:30:09 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by quintv
Anyone who thinks the D.520 can't stand up to the Bf.109E4 is free to use my account in wwiiol to test such theories.

Send me a PM for my account details.

No offense but the flight model in WW20L isn't accurate enough to give an accurate portrayel of the match up between these two planes.

ack-ack

quintv · « **Reply #127 on:** March 12, 2007, 02:48:27 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by ward88
It would be great to see the French represented in this game, the dewo stands out as the best candidate imo. Very nice plane indeed and certainly capable of looking after itself.

That aside, performance doesn't necessarily have to be the sole consideration. I'm sure there are many enthusiasts who just like the variety of different aircraft and would love the chance to fly lesser known birds.

Representing or 'honouring' France for the early part of the war would be a good thing and would only add to the nice variety that is already on offer....and I don't mean that to come across as charitable or condescending, it would be very well deserved and the H75 and D520 can certainly fill a role in the early war period.

Agreed.

straffo · « **Reply #128 on:** March 12, 2007, 03:13:19 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by ward88
It would be great to see the French represented in this game, the dewo stands out as the best candidate imo. Very nice plane indeed and certainly capable of looking after itself.

That aside, performance doesn't necessarily have to be the sole consideration. I'm sure there are many enthusiasts who just like the variety of different aircraft and would love the chance to fly lesser known birds.

Representing or 'honouring' France for the early part of the war would be a good thing and would only add to the nice variety that is already on offer....and I don't mean that to come across as charitable or condescending, it would be very well deserved and the H75 and D520 can certainly fill a role in the early war period.

Very kind post, thank you.

humble · « **Reply #129 on:** March 12, 2007, 03:25:16 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Knegel
Hi,

afaik exact what i wrote did happen. On even therms the D520 was outclassed by the 109´s, what dont exclude that it could shoot down a 109.
In real life there was only a few exceptions where the more slow planes could fair well for longer time, but then the pilot skill or a constant tactical advantage made the different. In WWII only know two of such examples, the combat over finnland, where the tactical skill of the finnish pilots made the different and the Hurris while BoB, which had the radar to bring them to the best tactical position.

According to what i did read, while tests the D520 could just turn with the 109E(the crashed one with damaged engine??), but with a bad stall character, the 109E could outclimb it and the 109E was faster and had a higher service ceiling. Also the firepower of the E4 was more big.
Where please is the advantage of the D520??
At what speeds was the roll better? I guess at highspeed, otherwise the 109E was rather good in rolling.

I absolutly believe the pilots did like this plane, which was, next to the Hawk75, the only real modern fighter in france, but also the german pilots, same like the hurri pilots and spit pilots did like their planes.

If it comes to flight datas, which shal get "copied" into the gameengine, the numbers and the testresults are most important and no matter how happy the pilots was to have a at least somewhat comparable performing plane, it is not the same class, like the E4. If someone would model it like that, he simply made a mistake.
No engeener can overcome the physical law, the D520 was more heavy, had less power and had a bit smaler wings, but a higher wingspan.
it had NO significant advantage that i would know of(do it had fuel injection??)
Nevertheless its not a bad performing plane and for sure help to bring some more EW fun to AH and iam looking forward to use it.

Greetings,

Knegel

Actually the french did well vs the germans in combat. The biggest issue was moral. Those units that fought did well. The 75's in particular more then held there own. The 1st air combat between the french and germmans saw 109E's of 1/JG53 clash with Hawk 75's of GC II/4. Werner Molders was shot down in that engagment. A few month later Hannes Gentzen led I/ZG2 (in 109's) on a bounce of a french recon plane escorted by 75's. 4 109s went down and 4 were badly damaged despite the germans having alt experience & 3 to 1 numerical advantage. French lose was plane forced down but repairable.

Molders was shot down a second time and captured prior to frances capitualtion.

All in all those french units that fought more then held there own. The hawk 75 would be a formidable early war plane very capable of holding it's own. The D520 stayed in service through 1944 and was still being flown in combat by the axis. All in all the french did very well, the army lost the war for the french....not the airforce.

French victory claims were not especially strict so claims were higher then german loses...still overall the french actually inflicted significant loses...

French Aces (39-8/40)

Pachy · « **Reply #130 on:** March 13, 2007, 04:52:22 AM »

Quote

According to what i did read, while tests the D520 could just turn with the 109E(the crashed one with damaged engine??), but with a bad stall character, the 109E could outclimb it and the 109E was faster and had a higher service ceiling.

The tested Emil was WkNr 1304, a very early production E-3. It had made an emergency landing in France in November 1939. It was overhauled and test-flown on its own, then in mockup fights versus many French types.

Quote

No engeener can overcome the physical law, the D520 was more heavy, had less power and had a bit smaler wings, but a higher wingspan.

On the weight issue, we should agree first on what's the Emil's weight, because sources vary greatly. A German document I have seen says the typical loaded take-off weight (with fuel, ammo etc.) for an early, unarmoured E-3 would have been around 2610 kg. I suppose that in Spring 1940, they had added some armour, so it would have been a bit heavier, probably slightly lighter than the D.520's 2675 kg, but not that much. However, the French test report on WkNr 1304 says it was only 2540 kg loaded, which is inconsistent with other sources...

On the power issue, you have to research a bit. The DB601 has an excellent WEP capability, giving much more extra power than the Hispano's. But its continuous power is not that impressive. At altitude, the DB601A-1's 30-minute continuous setting is 960 metric hp versus 920 for the 12Y45 (continuous setting). The bigger difference is at lower altitudes, where the DB is much better, whereas the HS's Szydlowski compressor settles the differences at the highest altitudes.

Quote

do it had fuel injection??

No.

straffo · « **Reply #131 on:** March 13, 2007, 05:11:46 AM »

Btw not having fuel injection doesn't imply fuel starvation àla hurrycan

quintv · « **Reply #132 on:** March 13, 2007, 08:21:55 AM »

lol YAY Pachy is here.

Who told you? was it wstpt?

straffo · « **Reply #133 on:** March 13, 2007, 08:38:12 AM »

I did

Charge · « **Reply #134 on:** March 13, 2007, 09:02:07 AM »

"At altitude, the DB601A-1's 30-minute continuous setting is 960 metric hp versus 920 for the 12Y45 (continuous setting). The bigger difference is at lower altitudes, where the DB is much better, whereas the HS's Szydlowski compressor settles the differences at the highest altitudes."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hispano-Suiza_12Y

http://enginehistory.org/TM/htm/tmv5n1.htm

http://ntrs.nasa.gov/archive/nasa/casi.ntrs.nasa.gov/19930081638_1993081638.pdf

-C+