Wiggling Planes

[Gopher]

Originally posted by B@tfinkV
~the term you are looking for is 'stick stirring dweebs'

most often a tactic of the 190D and P51 timid pilots when they lose thier alt advantage and have no clue what to do next..

As Stated above
If you fly a 190D or a P51  and a enemy is on your 6
you must not move the stick left or right
 You must fly stright and true  if not,
you are stick strring  
therfor  cheating them of a easy kill and wrong
 I hope that clears it up for you

[cbizkit]

Originally posted by Gopher
As Stated above
If you fly a 190D or a P51  and a enemy is on your 6
you must not move the stick left or right
 You must fly stright and true  if not,
you are stick strring  
therfor  cheating them of a easy kill and wrong
 I hope that clears it up for you

There is a fairly clear cut difference between effective jinking and stick stirring.

The difference primarily is the effectiveness and realism inherent in the moves. As an example, I fly a F4U as my regular plane so thats what we'll use.

The F4U does not have great acceleration but has pretty good top end speed. As such, if I make the decision to extend making wild radical moves from hard positive to hard negative G is counter-productive as it basically becomes one constant E bleed. Bleeding E when you're trying to build speed to get away is a quick way to get you dead. So depending on whats chasing me I typically use a series of gentler moves that force a tracking 6 shot that doesn't provide a large deflection profile that they can hit easily which allows me to build speed. This is a trade-off between being hard to hit and actually escaping.

Stick-stirring does not take this into account at all. Unrealistic hard positive to hard negative G's are made.. unrealistic in the sense that most pilots cannot physically cope with the repeated maneuvers, pulling hard positive G's for periods of time is possible but hard on the body. Slamming between hard positive back to hard negative to hard positive to hard negative is not something I've ever heard any pilots doing. While this does make the target difficult to hit sure, it bleeds most of the targets E while they do this and they actually end up putting themselves in a worse position than they originally were in to start with.

A concerted effort to force an overshoot is one thing. Flailing around at the stick with no strategy beyond 'zomg dont let them hit me!!!!' is what the complaints are focused on. And to be honest if it was something I merely encountered when facing green pilots only it wouldn't be worth mentioning. But the fact of the matter are there are many more experienced pilots (experienced but not necessarily good) now that use this type of thing as a crutch, and because of the fact its not realistic due to the physical aspects involved seems very much like gaming the game.

In the end you're going to live far more often if you actually try to out maneuver your opponent or keep your E until you're out of range.

[weazely]

stick sterring......works silly tactic but works (most times when im trying it i get the do not move controlls so rapidly stuff)



Jokester

[Chalenge]

I upgraded again and last night ran into a few guys trying this stick stirring stuff. Now that I dont see little graphic warps and hesitations I can really nail those outside moves and none of these guys got past the first shot. Go ahead and stick stir.

[SkyRock]

Originally posted by -SR-


Cherry Picking.  I agree with Tumor. It is part of the SA.If you get picked it is your own fault.



-SR-

  I see these types in the arena all the time, if you try to engage them they run.  If you try to climb up to them they fly the different direction out of icon range.  They hang around just out of icon range and wait for you to find another plane to fight, then and only then do they come down to pick.  Classless, tasteless,lame and cowardly!


Mark

[Kuhn]

Originally posted by Chalenge
I upgraded again and last night ran into a few guys trying this stick stirring stuff. Now that I dont see little graphic warps and hesitations I can really nail those outside moves and none of these guys got past the first shot. Go ahead and stick stir.

There is a new upgrade as of when?

[Simaril]

Originally posted by wstpt10
Well, if you can't tell by the post count and join date, I'm rather new to this game...

Something that I have noticed happening a lot when I get in close for a kill is that the guy I'm targeting is jinking along the vertical axis at an impossible rate. The bugger is really all over the place! Is this some sort of lag issue, or a rather a-historic tactic?

Thanks

Now wait a mintue here...I'm not sure these guys are stirrers, and I'm not sure the "moving stick too rapidly" coding is failing.



I think its FAR more common to see this from the transition from "smoothing code" to real time positioning.

Here's what I mean:

Data on other planes' positions is sorted by HTC server, and updated on your computer with priority based primarily on the distance the con is from you. In other words, extreme dot ranges are updated less often than 1K cons, but more often than radar dots from the other side of the map.

At longer ranges, the game lets the choppy nature of those updates show. So, if you're chasing a dot at extreme range you see him stay still for a few seconds, then make a jump, and stay still there for a few more.

At some point, the movements get smoother, and then appear natural. That's partly due to the range update priority, but also due to "smoothing code" that HT uses to "fill in the gaps" between data points. In essence, the game makes educated guesses about where the plane is likely to be, and fine tunes theose guesses when the next data chunk comes in.

If the software guesses wrong, or much more commonly if the player's connection causes an unusually long wait for actual position data, we see warping. Because the smoothing code is good, warping almost always comes from connection VARIATION not from connection speeed.

Once the enemy is very close to you, smoothing code doesnt predict well enough to be reliable, and we end up waiting for real time data chunks. On  the enemies front end, he may be doing legitiamte ACM, maybe a sloppy vertical scissor or something -- but since we get periodic updates, we see him jumping and flopping from position to position.


All those uys who "deliberately warp" when you get close arent doing that at all -- you're seeing the effects of internet delay on very close range maneuvering.


For example, last week I miraculously ended up on Skyrock's 6. On my fron end, when I got under 400 I saw his plane jerkling higher and lower as he maneuvered to break away -- but he WASN'T stick stirring. It was simply the software and internet effects I described above. And I couldnt hit his plane for anything even though I could anticipate his break timing, because of the delay in updates from the server. (Well, that and my general stinkiness...but I digress.)



I really think this is FAR AND AWAY the biggest reason for "stick stirring", especially the ones who seem to jerk around. Truly rapid movements freeze the controls -- and if you think that threshold is set too low, try to deliberately stir in combat sometime....

[SlapShot]

Originally posted by Simaril
Now wait a mintue here...I'm not sure these guys are stirrers, and I'm not sure the "moving stick too rapidly" coding is failing.



I think its FAR more common to see this from the transition from "smoothing code" to real time positioning.

Here's what I mean:

Data on other planes' positions is sorted by HTC server, and updated on your computer with priority based primarily on the distance the con is from you. In other words, extreme dot ranges are updated less often than 1K cons, but more often than radar dots from the other side of the map.

At longer ranges, the game lets the choppy nature of those updates show. So, if you're chasing a dot at extreme range you see him stay still for a few seconds, then make a jump, and stay still there for a few more.

At some point, the movements get smoother, and then appear natural. That's partly due to the range update priority, but also due to "smoothing code" that HT uses to "fill in the gaps" between data points. In essence, the game makes educated guesses about where the plane is likely to be, and fine tunes theose guesses when the next data chunk comes in.

If the software guesses wrong, or much more commonly if the player's connection causes an unusually long wait for actual position data, we see warping. Because the smoothing code is good, warping almost always comes from connection VARIATION not from connection speeed.

Once the enemy is very close to you, smoothing code doesnt predict well enough to be reliable, and we end up waiting for real time data chunks. On  the enemies front end, he may be doing legitiamte ACM, maybe a sloppy vertical scissor or something -- but since we get periodic updates, we see him jumping and flopping from position to position.


All those uys who "deliberately warp" when you get close arent doing that at all -- you're seeing the effects of internet delay on very close range maneuvering.


For example, last week I miraculously ended up on Skyrock's 6. On my fron end, when I got under 400 I saw his plane jerkling higher and lower as he maneuvered to break away -- but he WASN'T stick stirring. It was simply the software and internet effects I described above. And I couldnt hit his plane for anything even though I could anticipate his break timing, because of the delay in updates from the server. (Well, that and my general stinkiness...but I digress.)



I really think this is FAR AND AWAY the biggest reason for "stick stirring", especially the ones who seem to jerk around. Truly rapid movements freeze the controls -- and if you think that threshold is set too low, try to deliberately stir in combat sometime....

There is a distinct difference between what you are describing and stick-stirrin'.

Many times after fighting some guy for position, and all his movments are smooth, and when you finally saddle up on his 6 he starts jinking left and right - up and down - barrel rolls ... repeat same sequence (until he dies) ... that is stick-stirrin'.

Most that do this are flying late war speed machines and have attempted to fight, but lost the "position" fight ... and they don't quite have enough speed to exit safely ... so they start the stick stirrin' ... what they don't realize is that the stirrin' blows more E/Speed and they become an slower and easier target to hit.

I see this all the time ... and I laugh.

[SteveBailey]

Most that do this are flying late war speed machines and have attempted to fight, but lost the "position" fight ... and they don't quite have enough speed to exit safely ... so they start the stick stirrin' ... what they don't realize is that the stirrin' blows more E/Speed and they become an slower and easier target to hit.

Yup, like I said:  Let them fly back into your pipper.. they always do.. each time a little closer as they burn E from stirring.

[Angry Samoan]

Originally posted by hubsonfire
This is the only place some of these guys fight.

For the rest of us, if we're not fighting, we're fighting over what to fight about next.

Classic!!

[FALCONWING]

Ok im confused....

I have about 400-500 air to air (sprinkled with vulches) kills a camp and i have never thought someone was stick-stirring...honest...

About 3 years ago someone told me about stickstirring and i tried it a few times...every time i got the "dont move oyur stick too fast message" AND my joystick went out of calibration badly...so i stopped...


not sure what I am missing here...do other people not get calibration issues when you stick stir as well???

[Simaril]

Originally posted by FALCONWING
Ok im confused....

I have about 400-500 air to air (sprinkled with vulches) kills a camp and i have never thought someone was stick-stirring...honest...

About 3 years ago someone told me about stickstirring and i tried it a few times...every time i got the "dont move oyur stick too fast message" AND my joystick went out of calibration badly...so i stopped...


not sure what I am missing here...do other people not get calibration issues when you stick stir as well???

Gotta say, I'm with Falc on this one.

I still think most supposed stick stirring is connection/smoothing code related.

[cbizkit]

Originally posted by Simaril
Gotta say, I'm with Falc on this one.

I still think most supposed stick stirring is connection/smoothing code related.

It's simply a matter of definitions changing over time. Previously stick-stirring was the phrase used to identify someone moving their stick rapidly in many directions to create erratic movements which amplified the issues that result from receiving only so many positional updates in a second.

It's now often used to describe the erratic high +G high -G transitional moves that're employed to dodge bullets while (poorly) attempting to flee a pursuer. Others might call it propoising etc.

Grab an F4U4 some day and spend it chasing down 190's that attempt to ho and run. You'll see what we're talking about.

[Chalenge]

Ill start rolling film again and see if I can catch a prime example. It shouldnt be too hard.

[SkyRock]

Originally posted by Simaril
Gotta say, I'm with Falc on this one.

I still think most supposed stick stirring is connection/smoothing code related.

Dudes, this is ole school!  Only newbs truly stik stir!  It usually comes around 3-9 months in, "****!  Duedes on my six!!!  I'm gonna try this!"  I usually chop throttle, hard rudder, intentional stall-right, let sights fall on target, and Blammmo!

Mark


PS:   I own anyone who quotes my post!   Do it!  You know you want to!!!!!!!!!!!!!!I will totally own your "falling to the ground burning" piece of a plane when it's finished!



Muppets OWN!